Votes are earned.
He makes a great point, endorsing Biden isn’t going to do anything to win their contract battles. The liberal DC blob has gotten so used to union leadership being adjuncts to the Democrat machine that when they steadfastly put union members first, the libs go ballistic.
That’s basically the argument I make to normies when I explain why I don’t vote for the Dems. They take the left (I mean the broader “left”) for granted, so just handing over our votes and demanding nothing return means you get nothing. And we’re at the point now that the Dems aren’t even throwing the most basic of bones to the left.
Breaking up the railroad strike has been my go-to example. Demanding that Dems support unions other than when it’s convenient for them (and unobtrusive to capital) is the most basic demand the left can make, and it’s one that I’ve found that regular ass libs I know irl have a hard time arguing against.
They’ll bend over backwards to compromise with republicans but they won’t bend a finger to compromise with us. Why should I care if their political project fails?
Why should I care if their political project fails?
Because people get hurt.
Democrats might suck as far their desire, willingness, and ability to implement actual leftist reforms, but they are not as purposefully cruel. Suffering is real, more suffering is worse than less suffering, and one party is openly sadist.
Also, one party will make your goal of making the world a better place (which I assume is your ultimate goal) much more risky than the other. Why would you make your goal more difficult to achieve out of spite?
(This is your cue to bring up black vans at BLM and say that Democrats are no better).
I realize that the Democrats are not going to bring about communist utopia, but as a trans person, one party winning power makes me scared of going about daily life, makes me wonder if my medication will be banned, whether I’ll be prohibited from public areas because of my identity – the other doesn’t. But I guess you don’t care about any of that.
If you think voting Democrat will make your revolution less likely or take longer, and you are willing to let harm happen to make it happen faster than you are an accelerationist - a morally tenuous position at best.
Trans liberation will NOT come from voting democrat
Nobody said this, I don’t know what the point is to bring this up.
Democrats might suck as far their desire, willingness, and ability to implement actual leftist reforms, but they are not as purposefully cruel. Suffering is real, more suffering is worse than less suffering, and one party is openly sadist.
Republicans are obviously more cruel than Democrats and I’ll even throw in that they’re generally dumber as well. But I do think you’re underselling just how dog shit and cruel Democrats are. We have somewhere between 50-90k people dying each year due to lacking healthcare in this country and Democrats have absolutely no desire to stop it. Nada, zilch, none, 200-360k people will have died in the US under Biden presidency that didn’t have to.
Republicans are dumb antivaxers who don’t understand science, but Democrats claim to, which makes their COVID response a cruel and disgusting genocide on those with disabilities.
whether I’ll be prohibited from public areas because of my identity – the other doesn’t. But I guess you don’t care about any of that.
I can’t speak for the person you responded to, but I would assume that they care about trans rights and existence.
I do think two things are worth noting:
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Your and my votes generally do not matter because a single vote usually is not going to make a difference we could have every Hexbear user vote, even the non-American ones, and it would not move the needle.
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The attack on trans people is happening while Democrats are in power and rather than confronting it in any meaningful way they’ve equivocated about the complexity of childs sports.
If you think voting Democrat will make your revolution less likely or take longer, and you are willing to let harm happen to make it happen faster than you are an accelerationist - a morally tenuous position at best.
Capitalism is going to do what it does regardless of which party we vote for. This is because the contradictions are very apparent and neither party is capable of addressing them. Republicans will continue to scapegoat trans people and probably immigrants and Democrats will continue to be cowards while hogs shoot up schools and gay bars. And that’s it. Nothing will be done about it.
Your and my votes generally do not matter because a single vote usually is not going to make a difference… (which seems to me to imply (in this case) don’t bother voting, revolution is the only way to make things better)
I see this attitude a lot in the auth-left. Is this a general thing or only counts when talking about voting?
What about driving SUVs? I’m just one person, doesn’t matter if I drive an SUV right? It’s only one automobile. And promoting the concept that people shouldn’t drive SUVs would be silly right?
What about consuming animal products? It wouldn’t matter if people become vegan or not right?, the cow is already dead, the carbon emissions already emitted, and one person eating a hamburger won’t make any difference, no sense in eating less meat or trying to promote eating less meat, it’d be no more useful than voting/promoting voting. The only solution would be to outlaw being non-vegan, and anyone who wants a burger deserves the wall right?
There is no fucking “auth-left” get outta here with that liberal bs. Also real “you want to decolonize? wow so you want to shoot all white people” energy there
auth-left
Polcomp is a stupid meme that it is below you to believe in even as a liberal
What should I use instead? And what other ways should I differentiate myself, an anarcho-communist, from other leftists who want to use state power to get their way? Is that not authoritarian?
There may be dumb people making dumb memes about it, but I haven’t seen anything that makes more sense. If you can point me to something better I’d appreciate it.
Bad examples.
The idea of voting is for collective action (maybe). If 51 % vote for something, the we all are supposed to do the thing.
It would be like, “If 51% of people went vegan, then 100% of the population would be required to be vegan. But since vegans are not 51% of the people, no concessions should be made towards their beliefs.”
Honestly, the Republicans and conserva-Dems are doing that right now with an transphobic arguments along the line of, “Hey, trans people are such small portion of the population, wouldn’t it be easier for them all to just, you know, not be trans?”
I agree with everything but I think this is a weak line to use:
a single vote is not going to make a difference
it’s true that leftists are too small in number to sway an election, but with that line you’re just gonna get “what if everyone thought that way.” You can see how the lib you were talking to latched onto that one line and ignored everything else.
more importantly, the whole purpose of denigrating voting is to get people to organize. As long as people organize, whether or not they also vote in national elections is of little consequence imo, as long as they have realistic expectations. If they think there’s some marginal harm reduction, that’s fine, as long as they don’t pin all their hopes on some crisp, bloodless Democrat who’ll let Citibank pick their cabinet like Obama did in 2008.
People need to understand that, even when the majority votes blue, their votes do not actually result in policy. We have to break the false sense of political agency that voting gives people. But the purpose is ultimately not to stop people from voting, but to make them start organizing.
Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens (2014)
Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.
[…]
In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule — at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.
I really like your point about voting not resulting in policy, I’d completely forgotten about that study and will be using it. But I’d like to clarify something:
a single vote is not going to make a difference
it’s true that leftists are too small in number to sway an election
It doesn’t matter if you’re liberal or conservative or a leftist any single vote doesn’t matter because single votes do not typically determine elections. Like you can be a liberal in a conservative area you’ll be out voted or a liberal in a liberal area will likely have their candidate win by a significant margin meaning their vote didn’t really matter either.
again, you’ll just get “What if everyone thought that way.”
but I agree it’s worth pointing out that a lot of ballots are basically thrown in the trash, if you don’t live in a swing area in this gerrymandered hell country.
Capitalism is going to do what it does regardless of which party we vote for. This is because the contradictions are very apparent and neither party is capable of addressing them. Republicans will continue to scapegoat trans people and probably immigrants and Democrats will continue to be cowards while hogs shoot up schools and gay bars. And that’s it. Nothing will be done about it.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
I’m an anarcho-communist, so I’m not saying the solutions to the world’s problems can be solved within the system, but I also think there is value in being realistic and reducing harm with available tools and not making my enemy more powerful out of spite.
I’ll reply to both of your comments just to be coherent:
(which seems to me to imply (in this case) don’t bother voting, revolution is the only way to make things better)
I did not say this. Voting can make things better it just often doesn’t. My mentality on voting is that if it’s easy to do then do it but there are counties where I live where people will have to wait for up to 3 hours to vote and often have to get to work. Is it worth it to browbeat these people who would rather do anything else? I would say not.
A single person being a vegan or driving an SUV does not matter in aggregate for the climate because there are systematic problems that pollute significantly more than any single person will in infinite lifetimes.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
My brother/sister/nb in Christ are you really saying that it is more “realistic” to vote out capitalism than it is to have a revolution? There have been numerous revolutions and zero elections that have overthrown capitalism.
If you want to vote to improve things Godspeed and I’ll even join you, but the notion that you’ll achieve your goals of Socialism through voting is absurd. Direct action gets the goods and is infinitely more important than voting.
I did not say this. Voting can make things better it just often doesn’t.
Amazing! I’d call this progress.
counties where I live where people will have to wait for up to 3 hours to vote
You know why they have to wait 3 hours to vote? Because Republicans gain power and make it more difficult to vote for those in areas they think may not support them. This problem would be easy to solve by increasing non-Republican voters (interestingly Taylor Swift may be helping here lol).
A single person being a vegan or driving an SUV does not matter in aggregate for the climate because there are systematic problems that pollute significantly more than any single person will in infinite lifetimes.
Ok, at least that’s a consistent position. I expect to not see you denigrate people for eating meat or driving large vehicles.
My brother/sister/nb in Christ are you really saying that it is more “realistic” to vote out capitalism than it is to have a revolution?
Nope. But I think having people in power that don’t have a particular boner for cruelty will make any attempts at moving beyond capitalism easier. As far as methods of moving beyond capitalism, I’m in favor of things like dual-power, mutual-aid, community level resilience and independence from capitalist and state systems – and having fascists in power makes those things harder and riskier. When we know where our food is coming from when the grocery store is not an option, we can consider being able to fight for more than 2 days.
Voting for a piece of legislation, cool. Which is why all the cool things that people want don’t get put up for public votes, we might actually get good stuff.
Voting for a person, who then gets to whatever they want carte blanche style for their entire term, meh.
Direct democracy, I agree would be better than representative, and maybe now even possible/practical with the internet.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
No one here is pretending that having fun online is really advancing a revolutionary agenda. That’s pure projection. You think you’re doing something by voting and by telling us to vote. Its an empty sacrement that absolves you by participating in it. And like all hollow religions, its adherents need others to believe.
You might want to consider looking for realistic solutions rather than entertaining the idea that one person will convience a few thousand people (who spend free time pissing people off by being openly communist while online for fun) of the importance of
ing in a fake democracyNo one here is pretending that having fun online is really advancing a revolutionary agenda
I disagree here - I think cultural change is the harbinger of societal change. I for example called myself liberal, capitalist, and the thought of abolishing the police was unthinkable - until I was exposed to Beau of the Fifth Column and people on Reddit a bit like yourself but nicer (i.e. anarchists not Marxist types) that exposed me to new ideas.
I’d imagine if Beau called me an idiot and transphobe I probably would not have been convinced. I’m currently working to build community, this started online.
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You do not have a morally superior position because you personally feel scared by one of the two sides of the increasingly fascistic coin of american politics. I’d argue that dismissing the immense suffering of huge swathes of the world let alone the USA in exchange for personal security is an immensely selfish (at minimum amoral) stance. Especially when that security is built on a house of cards that can be taken away at any moment when the Democrats find it “politically inconvenient” to support trans people.
Also, yes, lots of dems are intentionally cruel, so socialists support and organize with socialist/left parties. Wild that. The binary of Republican-Democrat is such an obviously bullshit creation; it’s incredible that in the year 2023 people are still browbeating people for not caring about presidential elections. It might be worthwhile to interrogate why you think that the mass amounts of violence that the Democrats support (often, in conjunction with the Republicans or as continuation of Republican policy) can be so readily dismissed.
If you think that voting in US Presidential Elections will make your country any better, and you are willing to ignore harm happening to the already hyper-exploited and oppressed populations of the world, then you are a misguided electoralist - a morally tenuous position at best.
You do not have a morally superior position because you personally feel scared by one of the two sides
I have a morally superior position because I’m trying to reduce harm while you’re trying to get your party into power.
Republicans are the drunken father that comes home and beats you with his belt and Democrats are the mother that cries about it but keeps buying him beer. I get why you might like her better but the cycle of abuse doesn’t stop until you grow the fuck up and start hitting back
Right!!! Now who would you rather fight? Big strong sadistic dad or milquetoast mom?
while you’re trying to get your party into power.
Said the individual campaigning for votes for dems.
If you and the people you are organizing with (I’m sure you organize irl) decide to engage in entryism. Good for you, hope it goes well. I’ll tell you, historically, it typically doesn’t go great.
Newsom literally just vetoed a bill to protect trans kids in california despite overwhelming democrat representation and approval, that’s the most recent ratfuckery the democrats have pulled in a long line of them. You’re telling people to run for office? Tell me what happened to Bernie, an extremely milquetoast left option but still too disruptive to DNC corporate interest.
I agree with you people should vote, they should vote for third parties. they should communicate to political institutions that what we have is not working. But too many Americans have latched onto their dumb sports team red-blue politics game rather than trying to actually understand what political power is materially, theoretically, and historically. If we do engage in entryism (we shouldn’t) it should be organized so as not to get subsumed and crushed. If you are personally compelled to vote for the democrats out of personal interest, I will not stop you. But I am not interested in crumbs dusted from the table.
Said the individual campaigning for votes for dems.
Because Dems are less (“LESS” not “NOT”) harmful to minorities and will make my job of trying to end capitalism less risky. I don’t care about Democratic power itself. If you have a better idea to reduce harm I’d like to hear it. I’m pretty sure revolution is going to hurt many vulnerable people.
Newsom literally just vetoed a bill to protect trans kids in california despite overwhelming democrat representation and approval
First off, you’ll notice people calling this a “betrayal”, because they expected more from a Democrat, this and worse would be typical and expected for a Republican. Second of all, I didn’t read the law but read Newsom’s note about it and kinda agree. Newsom is not motivated by trans hate lol.
You’re telling people to run for office? Tell me what happened to Bernie
You give up that easy? Good luck trying to revolt against the world!
I agree with you people should vote, they should vote for third parties.
Math doesn’t give a shit about opinions, voting third party in our system is a losing proposition. Use it for signalling in safe districts.
Reducing harm by voting for the dixiecrat who stood by and let Roe v Wade get shredded, and then dismantled the railroad strike, which coincidentally led to a 38-car train derailment and massive chemical spill in Ohio just a few weeks later
We’ve reduced so much harm!
Well it could be all of the above + drag queens in jail, plus you jail for your radical communist ideas, + me not able to get my medication + gay people not getting married and afraid to come out in fear of losing their jobs. But I guess it’s all the same right?
Was what they did to Libya not purposefully cruel? are mandatory minimums and three strike laws not purposefully cruel? is mass deportation not purposefully cruel? Are sanctions on Venezuela not purposefully cruel?
Was what they did to Libya not purposefully cruel?
Not sure what this is about
Are mandatory minimums and three strike laws not purposefully cruel?
Yes, and I’d imagine there’s much more support for this type of law amongst Republicans then Democrats. I’d imagine you’re going to point out the '94 crime bill or something and Democratic support. Well, understand I’m not a Democrat apologist, I don’t think they are without blame or do no wrong, they are just not as bad as Republicans.
is mass deportation not purposefully cruel? Are sanctions on Venezuela not purposefully cruel?
Yes, do you think Republicans would not do these things? And much worse? I’m not saying Democrats are good.
Not sure what this is about
Google how Gaddafi died and then what Hillary had to say about it, for one.
But what happened to the country was that it was bombed back to the stone age and what was once one of the better countries in Africa for the poor became one that has open air slave markets.
Ah ok, I don’t defend that. I am not a Hillary apologist, I don’t support U.S. colonialism. I simply think Republicans are worse for the well being of people that live in the U.S. than Democrats are. All else being equal, I prefer the party not actively trying to erase my existence. And I think organizing to make real change is less risky under Democrats (conservatives) than Republicans (fascists).
When it comes to international relations, I don’t believe morality, cruelty, etc are really part of the calculation. It’s all about power.
I disagree with this post being removed. First of all, I think trans people who are afraid of the GOP’s genocidal actions against trans people should have room to express that fear. I’ve always said that still clinging to the idea that there is hope to save trans people in voting for Democrats is an understandable if wrong position. I empathize with it.
Second, I think there should be room in leftist circles to discuss whether lesser evilism and harm reduction are acceptable positions. I don’t think it should be dismissed as liberalism. I was a comunist who still believed in lesser evilism for a looooooong time and to this day I would vote Democrat in presidential elections if I lived in a state where my vote mattered. Honestly, with lesser evilism its more that I’ve accepted the party line without really understanding it rather than really truly getting why its wrong, so Ilike discussions about it to happen because I learn best through discussion.
Obviously I disagree with them that there is any hope in the Democratic party. I’m past that point. But I don’t think they said anything removable. Nothing that makes this space unsafe for Hexbears.
Fair points.
What got removed? Did I get removed? Is Hexbear scared of me? lol
Y’all define liberalism as anyone not 100% pro Xi Jinping Thought. A liberal is a proponent of capitalism right? I am not.
I’d like to point out in a binary system, i.e. “lesser evilism” vs “more evilism”, the choice should be clear. Voting Democrat is not about thinking the “lesser evil” will fix things, it’s about not making things unnecessarily worse.
You are still riddled with liberalism as a philosophy, regardless of your stated desires to end capitalism. It’s a framework within which you’ve learned literally everything up until you read works from feudal peoples or Marxists. But even pre-maexist/pre-liberalism works have been absorbed by liberal context and reinterpreted through that lens. You are still here.
Stalin wrote about anarchism as an idea which exists in every socio-economic system. It’s what happens when someone is part of that system but wanting to be independent of it. We don’t just want independence from capitalism, but the overthrow of it, and that’s why we are Marxists. I think there are anarchists (mostly only ever seen here on hexbear) that are real comrades which Stalin’s analysis missed, those that see the crushing of the state needing to happen and be pushed for faster. I fully agree but think patience is a better tactic unfortunately.
You are not that though, you are just the kind Stalin talked about
hehe… HAHAH… HAW HAW… GUFFAAW!
Okay… So… there were some headlines at the beginning of the year talking about how many anti-trans bills the Republican party had been flooding the various states’ Congresses’ with. The number was in the hundreds across the USA.
You know what I never read a headline about? How many pro-trans bills the Democratic party were flooding those same Congresses’ with in response. So like, no only would they be vocal and voting against the anti-trans stuff but being vocal and pushing for pro-trans stuff. But that didn’t seem to happen. One party not only said what they believed, they actually tried to legislate in accordance with their stated beliefs. The other party will talk about believing something but get really waffley when it comes time to actually do the thing.
Also, if you live in a red state, the “harm reduction” argument doesn’t apply. Unless you vote for team red, your vote is wasted on a candidate.
The other party will talk about believing something but get really waffley when it comes time to actually do the thing.
I transitioned just over 20 years ago, at the time in California I had no right to housing or employment (i.e. it was perfectly legal for a landord to say “we don’t rent to your type”). Guess who changed that?
Also, if you live in a red state, the “harm reduction” argument doesn’t apply.
So you’re saying it matters?
Lol tough timing for that argument Newsom literally just vetoed a bill defending Trans people.
I don’t believe this bill was that clear cut, I don’t think Newsom did anything seriously wrong here. Did you read his response? I think it makes sense, as a trans person I agree with his vote.
Democrats might suck as far their desire, willingness, and ability to implement actual leftist reforms, but they are not as purposefully cruel. Suffering is real, more suffering is worse than less suffering, and one party is openly sadist.
Cop City is a complete counter to this argument. It’s in Atlanta, a Democrat stronghold. It’s obvious Cop City is a response to the George Floyd uprising, which the Democrats alongside the Republicans suppressed through counterinsurgency. Your fundamental error is believing the two parties aren’t part of a domestic counterinsurgency apparatus. An effective COIN apparatus employs the carrot and the stick. Of course the carrot is less immediately painful than the stick. That’s the function of the carrot. But do you think the good cop is somehow better than the bad cop, especially when they’re working together as a team?
Also, one party will make your goal of making the world a better place (which I assume is your ultimate goal) much more risky than the other. Why would you make your goal more difficult to achieve out of spite?
This is not really substantiated. You could easily make the argument that the Republicans are so openly reprehensible that people are far more likely to rise up like we saw with how the George Floyd uprising was partially fueled by Trump being an open fascist. Both this argument and your argument make the error that the Republicans and Democrats aren’t working together. Just because they have different roles doesn’t mean they aren’t part of the same team.
I realize that the Democrats are not going to bring about communist utopia, but as a trans person, one party winning power makes me scared of going about daily life, makes me wonder if my medication will be banned, whether I’ll be prohibited from public areas because of my identity – the other doesn’t. But I guess you don’t care about any of that.
Democrats don’t enshrine anything into law, meaning whatever fascist bullshit the Republicans come up with will be put up without a fight. Plus, federalism means those bullshit laws get passed anyways regardless who’s president. We saw this with Roe vs Wade where Democrats didn’t do shit after the Supreme Court ruled in favor of reproductive rights. They don’t do shit when they’re in power, and they aren’t an opposition party when not in power.
If you think voting Democrat will make your revolution less likely or take longer, and you are willing to let harm happen to make it happen faster than you are an accelerationist - a morally tenuous position at best.
Voting Democrat is at best a stalling tactic until Republicans drive the car off the cliff. If it’s in the context of you and your loved ones fleeing the US to a more progressive country, then yes, voting Democrat makes perfect sense since you would be out of the car when the car goes overboard. But if you have no real plans of immigrating to another country, voting Democrat means nothing since the car is going overboard anyways. Or it would be going overboard unless we wrestle control of the car from both the Democrats and Republicans.
You could easily make the argument that the Republicans are so openly reprehensible that people are far more likely to rise up
This is accelerationism, it harms people and the outcome is very uncertain so it’s not worth it, I am not for it.
Democrats don’t enshrine anything into law, meaning whatever fascist bullshit the Republicans come up with will be put up without a fight
So Democrats are not your ideal communists so you’re just gonna let fascists in power?
Voting Democrat is at best a stalling tactic
YES!!! FUCK!!! You get it! Vote Democrat and stall the fucking shit hitting the fan and build dual power, build community. Dunking on people ain’t the way to make progress.
You completely miss my point about the Democrats and Republicans being part of domestic counterinsurgency. And as for your point about stalling, stalling itself isn’t a real political strategy. The problem is that you’re elevating what is at best a mediocre political tactic into a political strategy. It’s not “you should vote,” but “you should vote for this particular referendum because the local community is politically engaged and actually wants this referendum to pass.” But as a tactic, there will be plenty of cases where the pursuing this tactic is a complete waste of time and energy. Presidential elections are a complete waste of time for people outside of battleground states. I live in a state, county, and city where the presidential results have been the same since Reagan. Literally everyone here knows which presidential candidate will win in 2024 and 2028 and 2032 and so on, so there’s really no point in voting for who gets to be president. The time spend canvasing or donating money or even trying to convince strangers to vote is better off just feeding homeless people.
Ok, this makes sense (sorry for the necro-reply, I’ve been mostly away from Lemmy), I agree it’s a waste to campaign for president in certain states.
Everytime I bring it up the drms insist that Biden personally worked to get the union member everything they asked for and then why I ask them why didn’t he just support them originally they say it would have hurt the economy.
They have an excuse for everything even if it contradicts their last excuse.
Wow, who would have thought that shutting down the railroad unions would cause some union leaders to be mad at you.
biden reaping
biden sowing
AOC’s instantaneous endorsement of Biden is far from the worst thing she’s done, but it might be the most pathetic.
AOC is just endorsing whoever the unions wanted her to endorse, man. You some sort of anti-union scab?
Power dynamics!
what are you talking about AOC is the coolest she said eat the rich!
Seeing her go from a nominally left-wing darling to a purely liberal one is a sight to see
She wants to be Pelosi
She probably wants to run in 2028 and Democratic primary voters are fanatics of the party.
- “Wait, you mean folding to right-wing fascists is making the left lose confidence in us?!”
The unions have turned against Joe Biden, which means they must be in favor of Trump.
We need to destroy them immediately.
Dont you know that unions are inherently right wing?
Well of course that’s right. The first word in the USSR anthem was “union”, and the USSR was authoritarian, in other words right wing. QED.
The media totally thinks that working class people owe some sort fealty to politicians when they do the most basic theater. The big media bust so hard over theater not substance.
i don’t know whether or not the media actually thinks that, but I do know that it is their job to say it.
Dude’s name is Sinn Féin
his name is Shawn Fain, with a name like that youre probably gonna start to do some cool shit
Posadist aliens are gonna be very confused when they try to translate the story about this Irish President Joe Biden being struck down by the Shawn Fain.
a proud friend of Erin Gobragh and Mr. Chucky Arlaw
This makes Biden look like a bullet-dodging superhero.
look mr. dubois, I’ve got him eating out of the palm of my hand!- Listen, Jack. Mr. Evrart is helping me find… you know… the thing!
mr. evrart is helping me find my lost doohickey
Margaret brenner looked so pissed it had to be forced. It looks like she was told to look angry while asking that hard hitting dull whiffle ball question.
I used to see her all the time on bloomberg concern trolling CEOs during the financial crisis about their bailouts. Glad she’s staying busy defending capitalists on face the nation.
YOU - “Evrart is a hero of the worker’s movement.”
Hexbear opinions: Claires as genuine socialists or mere crooks? Seems like a lot of people just boil them down to their distasteful tactics and nature, do they miss what seems like genuine motivation against the corpos or is it actually just self service?
Hard to tell with such adept liars, but Evrart’s admission (if you want to take it as such) to Harry that his ultimate goal is to take everything from the capitalists of Revachol, always struck me as at least partially sincere.
Supposing that they are genuine socialists, that isn’t going to automatically make them nice men. Quite the opposite, most major historical figures weren’t nice people. Even heroes like Lenin and Stalin had hands that were far from clean; the Tiflis bank robbery is just one example of the kind of tactics they were known to resort to. I’ve heard the term “gangster socialism” used to facetiously describe the Bolsheviks’ early activities. If you believe the Claires are true comrades, then they’re also undoubtedly practicioners of gangster socialism par excellence.
deleted by creator
The Claires are doing anything in their power to maintain their authority and that includes doing sketchy things as long as they’re trying to survive. Anyone trying to achieve organized power in Revachol is going to be sketchy. So they are crooks, because being a crook is the only way to exist as a dominant force under Moralist rule. Evrart is utilitarian to a fault. If it works to keep the union in power, it’s good.
Whether or not it’s self-service, why should it matter? The union’s taken the dock and they’re genuinely organized.
C’mon, despite all of his faults Evrart is much more pro-worker than Biden. This is anti-Evrart slander.
Anchor: seems disdainful in their questioning
Title: media FLIPS THEIR FUCKING SHIT
Yeah ok good
Democrats continue being anti-worker and the usual office working libs will argue that the tradies are too dumb/problematic to understand the nuances of Biden.
timestamp https://youtu.be/OVl9FGe8fno?t=1417
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fascist enabler
what the fuck do you think Biden is? or did you forget roe v wade is gone?
The democrats and their presidents fucking suck. They don’t do anything to actually solve the problem and help the people. They seem to want to maintain the status quo together with the republicans, they are literally the same party, the only difference is that the republicans went maskoff after Bush Jr.
It’s like Raul Castro said;
President Raúl Castro said he saw no difference between Democrats and Republicans.
Castro recalled a conversation with a US official during President Obama’s recent visit. He told the official, he said: “It’s as if we had two parties in Cuba and Fidel led one and I led the other.”
And they don’t do shit to stop the Republicans. In Bolivia, when Lucho won the election against the U.S.-backed candidate, the first thing he did was arrest former dictator Jeanine and fascist leader Camacho and their allies. He also cancelled all the IMF loans she took. The same thing in Honduras. Even in Brazil, where the socdem government is a minority. 1.200 people went to jail for attempting a coup, Bolsonaro close allies went to jail. Bolsonaro lost his political rights, most of his reforms were reversed on day one, and he faces jail time for a bunch of crimes.
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Nothing, which is my point. There is no point in electing him because he did jack shit to address the problem, he just let it happen.
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You can’t meaningfully tell me it’s less likely with one than the other, based upon, y’know, evidence.
also, the plan is to do shit that isn’t sit on my ass for four years then pick one white guy to ascribe all progress or regression to.
fascist enabler
You already mentioned biden
Vote Biden people! The only other option will be a fascist or fascist enabler. I don’t like it anymore than you do.
First of all,
Second of all, the US is in irreversible decline. All roads point downhill, and there’s no stopping the process of collapse. Who gives a shit about damage control and lesser-evilism. The collapse of the US empire is better than trying to live under it.
Third of all, what’s your argument for electoralism and libby bibby bullshit liberalism being anything other than “rational fascism” and a failed ideology?
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Die fighting, by voting once every 4 years
“The fight” has absolutely nothing to do with voting for Biden you jackass
dude, your idea of “fighting” is voting for a literal fucking neolib conservative ghoul and then jerking yourself off over the difference you’ve made
if you want to fight so bad, join the next BLM protest in your city and fight the literal fascists with badges in the street; disturb the fucking peace, organize direct action and stop smugly congratulating yourself for supporting the blue wing of a fascist fucking project
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cucked liberals
I am acting smug
You’re a fucking clown. At least learn how to juggle and ride a unicycle. 🤡
You didn’t answer my question, jackass.
If you want to stop being miserable. Join the fight!
We’re all miserable, and we’re all already in the fight. We’re fighting against bullshit liberalism that doesn’t fucking work so we can move onto revolution.
Okay if you believe all that then shut up.
You don’t give a shit about working class people at all. All you care about is hegemony of speech and hegemony of thought. We’re not going to bend the knee to the likes of you chauvinist liberals.
All you’re doing is spread doomer bullshit that isn’t helping anyone.
Listen, fuckface, you’ve had over 50 years to prove liberal democracy and electoralism to be a legit form of praxis. The US is a failed state, and you aren’t helping anyone with your infantile cult-like evangelizing of the existing superstructure of the state that was built specifically to enslave and oppress the working class, people of color, and other relevant minority demographics (LGBTQ+ come to mind)
Die quietly and let everyone else die fighting.
Yeah? I don’t mind meeting you on the battlefield and letting our bullets do the talking. You’re insufferable and your ideology is at an end globally. You’re the one on the ropes here, not us. You’re the one panicking and scrambling to save a system that is in complete, perfect opposition to working class interests.
💥 
Bullets are more effective than votes. This is class war. What are your class interests? What’s your income look like? How about your housing situation?
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You deliberately evaded my questions about your class interests, your income and housing situation, which is very telling. You seem to have the most to lose from US hegemony’s collapse, thus you oppose our class interests.
Edit: Here’s the information I wanted -
This person likely also owns a home and land, and has a pretty cushy salary. Don’t even waste your time.You just want to shoot people. You want people to die due to fascism. So that you can LARP as a revolutionary soldier.
Again, no evidence to backup your claims here. You’re talking about someone in a vacuum here, which doesn’t work in the real world.
Listen if a violent revolution was going to be successful. Liberal democracy would have turned the USA into socialism by now.
Violent revolution succeeded in China, Cuba, DPRK, Laos, Vietnam, and of course in the former Soviet Republics. Force works. Africa is using force to liberate itself from the yoke of colonialism and neo-colonialism.
Liberal democracy was always meant to be a dictatorship of the capitalist class. We got the New Deal from FDR back in the 40s because of the threat of violent revolution. It was meant to save capitalism and legitimize it in opposition to the Soviet Union. Basically all of the “social democracy” the New Deal provided is now gone, and not by accident.
You’re not going to strip the teeth out of our class conflict and praxis. China is the new global leader and you can seethe and cope about it. The dictatorship of the working class will win. Communism will win.
I’m done engaging with you. History has already proven us to be on the right side of history, and you have nothing to offer working class people whatsoever.
Enjoy the dustbin of history.
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well paid working class doesn’t count as a proletariat
Being an affluent and sycophantic bootlicker for the ruling class places you in a different category, yes.
Of course you’re a smug and insulated computer toucher.
Engineer brain can be a crippling affliction. I’ve known so many smug comfortable shitheads like this - ready to be as left as can be until you actually want to ask for something.
For fuckin real if you’re getting paid enough to do game dev as a hobby, maybe listen to people in much more precarious situations.
Like I make barely more than min wage and work retail, you know what my hobby is? Helping to start and raise money for a revolutionary organization focused on indigenous sovereignty.
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If you’re going to start a revolution, you have to make sure you have more than 50% of the population on your side, at a minimum. The more population on your side the less death will occur. If more than 50% of the population agrees with you, democracy will work just fine.
Congrats this is the dumbest shit I’ve read all month. Successful revolutions in the past had way less than 50% of people participating in them. Also there’s a lot of things in modern day US that more than 50% of people agree on, like universal healthcare, yet it’s nowhere near on the horizon, curious.
Listen if a violent revolution was going to be successful. Liberal democracy would have turned the USA into socialism by now.
Die quietly and let everyone else die fighting.
What a badass and moviebrained way to spin the le epic gesture of
I’m imaging the end of Braveheart. While being tortured for his audacious campaign for voting dem every 4 years, Lib Wallace screams VOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTE
shit got me
- is not fighting
I thought you libs defeated fascism in 2020. If you’re singing the same song now, it just stands as proof that the dems did Jack shit to curb the rise of fascism, hence there’s no reasons to keep going along with this ‘harm reduction’ thing.
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No one needs to convince libs to vote for Biden. They’re already doing that. If you feel you need to though, bother them about it instead of communists
Democrats aren’t even harm reduction at this point, they’re controlled opposition for the Republicans, almost none of them have the will to actually make strong political moves so as to not anger the fascists too much, they’re complete cowards. The ones that do either don’t have any tangible power or they are reigned in by the party so as to be “realistic” and “pragmatic”. Voting Democrat is damn near the same as voting Republican.
deaf fish also just swim with the flow … i always thought it only the dead …
It’s a good thing Biden is a strong opponent to fascism
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What has Biden done to oppose fascism other than not having an orange spray tan? Sure, he may be a senile racist, rapist, reactionary war criminal, but he lacks an orange spray tan and his dementia causes him to sound more confused than unhinged. Don’t you know fascism doesn’t have content or policies it is merely being racist on TV with a weird affectation like a funny mustache or orange spray tan.
It doesn’t matter that Biden has continued Title 42 and increased ICE activity so that he not only outstrips Trump, but is gunning for Obama’s title of “Deporter in Chief”. It doesn’t matter that he has undone any COVID precautions and is trying to get rid of any data and reporting to help the pandemic be ignored. It doesn’t matter than he and the Democrats didn’t do anything to protect trans rights or abortion rights (even when they had the ability to fight back, even if limited). It doesn’t matter that the Biden administration used the COPS program to make sure police departments get increased funding, despite whatever local governments voted to give as a compromise to BLM.
Biden is fighting fascism by being a different person than Trump. In the literal sense, obviously they are figuratively the same person.
Let’s not forget that Biden didn’t reverse the embargo on Cuba and the sanctions on Venezuela, and added a series of sanctions against Nicaragua because the US-backed candidate lost the elections. He added Cuba to the list that the US accuses of “not cooperating fully” in the battle against terrorism for no fucking reason other than to fuck Cuba and the Cuban people.
Fuck, even fucking Obama removed large parts of the embargo. Even Jimmy Carter, in his fucking 90s, does more to improve US relations with the Global South than Biden.
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I don’t need to prove that Biden opposes fascism. I just have to prove the other candidate would be more fascist.
absolutely incredible
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Are you doing a bit? If so,
Extremely simple. I don’t vote for people who don’t oppose fascism. That sounds like supporting fascism to me
You’re here to engage in revisionism and pull us to the right. Just know we always punch right, so if you don’t want to get hit, don’t stand there.
President of Socialist Party of Zambia: Human development is not sustainable on basis of plunder
The US is an illegitimate country built on the enslavement of other human beings, the exploitation of Africans, the humiliation of Africans, the plunder of Africa and all of these go double for the entire Global South.
Presidents don’t matter, really. They will always represent the interests of the capitalist class, and the deep state (or, permanent government, whom survive transitions of power).
We’re not going to support fascism, no matter the circumstances. We’re not going to support fascists, no matter if they are “less fascist” than other fascists (which makes no fucking sense).
We’re also not going to play into electoralist nonsense. Revolution first, reform second.
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You can’t reform a system that is controlled by the class that necessarily must be eliminated to liberate everyone. What ruling class would allow their power to be voted away? Has that ever happened? No it hasn’t, and it isn’t going to happen
This is incredibly simple.
Your baby-brained view of the world is incredibly simple. The world that you are ignorant of is not.
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I must be right
Can you jerk yourself off any faster here?
if you had an argument against me
A hilariously shit take doesn’t deserve anything but to be flushed away.
Its the new
They’re all fascists. The US is a fascist state.
The constant “emergency” represented by the current cycle is connected to the fact that the dems don’t just not give a shit about fascism but literally bankroll far-right candidates. They want Republicans to be as far right as possible because it lets them be “left of the Republicans” while still being far to the right, and by keeping their base in a neverending sense of crisis, of “now is not the time to seek positive change, we need to reduce harm” with no means of stopping harm or, God forbid, reversing harm, you are literally just wasting your time telling people to vote for a slow death over a quick one instead of considering how to stop the killing.
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I beg of you to realize that unconditionally voting for someone who is less right wing means they can and will take your vote for granted and thereby never give you anything.
They’ve been running this “vote against the Republican” bullshit for around a half century and it’s what got us here.
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Instead of trying to convince us to vote for candidates who suck, you should go try to convince them to suck less. Then they could earn our votes. So simple!
- you tell 'em Jack. I’m nothing like uh… you ah… you know the other guy. What kind of lying dog faced pony soldier would think we’re the same.
Take that buffalo nickel i saved you off your 4th of July BBQ and buy yourself a chocolate chocolate chip, and be sure to
for me or the other Biden I don’t like either party.
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I think the only real thing he’s done to oppose fascism is to have his justice department arrest January 6th people, but that’s basically meaningless in the bigger picture.
He’s not doing anything to actually deal with the conditions that lead people to fascism, and he’s sure as hell not fighting against any of the fascist measures being implemented around the nation.
You’ve already started
joe biden is a fascist
is this a bit?Sure, but it won’t change the general trajectory of things. Every administration of this century has had more in common with one another than in difference.
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Are you trying to get me bummed out and not vote?
Drat, you’re on to me!
But honestly, I don’t care how you vote. In all likelihood, your state’s electoral college is already locked in one way or another. The point is that talking about this precise election cycle as though it is singularly important in history, as though creation and destruction hinge on it… kinda misses the overall pattern it exists in. I remember when Bush was the ultimate evil, a uniquely stupid and backward looking candidate…
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Your Democracy is a Sham and Here’s Why
We’re not going to waste energy on something proven to be a failed practice.
Your argument boils down to that of a gambling addict who doesn’t know when to stop, despite increased harm the longer you perpetuate it.
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You haven’t even engaged with the material I provided, which answers your questions.
Here’s an example of a successful country with actual fucking democracy, and this wasn’t all made possible by masturbating the idea of electoralism back in WWII: Things You CAN Do in China (You CAN’T Do in America) Americans WON’T Believe It…
This is your second chance to engage in good faith. Better take it.
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This is your 100th chance to not come off as a fascist supporter. You better take it!
You’ve failed to prove any of what you’ve said here. You’re a wrecker, and what you’re advocating for is the most boring shit ever.
Nobody cares about electoralism anymore, and we’re not going to engage in lesser-evilism. You don’t fight class war and win by engaging in the ruling class’ institutions and the rules they’ve arbitrarily made to defend their class dictatorship.
The US empire will die, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
Just vote for the guy who is less fascist.
If fascism is on the ballot, then your election is bullshit
Everything else is pure
Dems pull these same vote panic lines over and over every election. “Its Dems or the end of democracy” if that’s the case then democracy is already over. Not that it ever existed for anyone outside the ruling class
I’m sorry fighting is hard.
It is harder than voting for diet fascism and shitting on people that aren’t insulated and privileged lanyard-wearing smug computer touchers like yourself.
This thread has been a fascinating look into the mind of a
evangelist.Since they can only ever conceptualise change occuring via electoralism they seem to see not voting as therefore not doing anything.
Like, the only way to change the world is by voting for the lesser of two evils and hoping that maybe they might possibly do a watered down version of what you want.
Fucking bleak, no wonder fake edgy pop-nihilism is so popular among liberals.
Like, the only way to change the world is by voting for the lesser of two evils and hoping that maybe they might possibly do a watered down version of what you want.
Big-time West Wing victory conditions.
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If you seriously haven’t heard the slang before, there’s a difference between touching a computer and being a computer toucher in much the say way that most people play video games but only some are capital-G “Epic G!mers.” Coincidentially, the political ideology of both latter groups tend to line up.
Yes, I physically touched a computer to write this reply. However, I am not in a tech field where I am paid to touch that computer and paid so much on top of that that it’s my paid obligation to have absolutely horrible political takes because they’re in my class interest to believe in them.
