What surprises me is that they (people in the past) didn’t have past examples about similar things happening with very bad consequences, we do.
You would think the knowledge would make a difference…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historian
Systematic historical thought emerged in ancient Greece, a development that became an important influence on the writing of history elsewhere around the Mediterranean region. The earliest known critical historical works were The Histories, composed by Herodotus of Halicarnassus (484 – c. 425 BCE) who later became known as the “father of history” (Cicero).
Now how many people had access to this knowledge is another matter, but studying history and learning from it was an important aspect in the education and training of leaders to be since more than a thousand years at the very least.
If we look at Moses and the Pharaoh as well as ancient Greek democracies, we can conclude that the principles of politics have not changed all that much in the past 3000-4000 years of human history. The knowledge was always there and the same mistakes are always repeated, with some very incremental progresses and regressions in between.
Herodatus wrote narratives more than he wrote histories.
The definitive ‘beginning of history’ is “The History of the Peloponesian War” by Thucydides, highly recommend, well written and accessible even now and spells out the politics very clearly and explicitly.
If we look at Moses
Ah, that one was warped somewhere between Atrahasis and Gilgamesch epos and then again to bible. Might not be historically accurate (it’s unlikely that he existed).
They so often did though, how many massive fires broke out in London before the great fire finally convinced them to stop building overlapping thatched rooves.
Even during The Plague of Justinian scholars wrote about what was essentially ancient social distancing practices, 2000 years ago later we still can’t do it properly.
How many times did they have to put up with rat plagues and stinking open cess pits, followed by a big town clean up, and then nothing change in infrastructure or waste management practices, only to do the whole clean up again …until the Great Stink got to close enough to the windows of parliament that those in power decided maybe they should address the root problem instead of applying bandaids every few years.
(I don’t have a history degree so I’m pulling these details out of the memory depths of my dusty documentary viewings, and I’m probably wrong.)
I’m sure they had some knowledge. It’s just that the priests foretold victory in the course chosen by the leaders, the gods are with them! So off they go to war and conquest or whatever.
It does feel a bit 1930s at the moment doesn’t it
the decent thing to do for WW3 is to start it on the 100th anniversary of WW2.
i can only hope that the '39s would serve as a reminder each century to just fucking stop. (but more importantly, i hope to be naturally dead by then)
Until the last contemporary witness dies at least.
I’ve been working through a few biographies of the top brass of Nazidom, and even with the rather perfunctory understanding I’ve gained from these books of Hitler’s seizure of power and all that followed in Nazi Germany, my ears are pricking up in horror every day as I listen to the latest news from around the world. And I’m not even going so far as the Holocaust. If the Holocaust and WWII never happened, the Nazi regime would still have been an unmitigated nightmare.
The language certain politicians are using is plucked directly from the mouths of Goebbels’ and Himmler’s rotting corpses. How can they not see what lies ahead if they continue with this shit? We know how this story ends. We have examples of it from recent memory, we don’t even need to cast our minds back to the 1930s 🤷
Some of them see it, and approve.
Others are old and mentally ill, and care only for what power they can gain in their remaining few years, regardless of what that will bring later.
Others are merely useful, and go along with whoever is currently in power.
Others are afraid, so they do not oppose the changes, for fear of losing what they have, and desperately cling to hope that something else will stop the worst from happening.
Others…
and on and on it goes, just as it did before, just as it ever was, and quite frankly, now I see that so will it ever be.
The language certain politicians are using is plucked directly from the mouths of Goebbels’ and Himmler’s rotting corpses. How can they not see what lies ahead if they continue with this shit?
What’s even more infuriating is that when you try to point this out to others, they act like you’re insane/exaggerating.
…because most don’t study the rise and causes of what happened. They only study the result. “Never again” refers to the holocaust, but nobody puts that sign on the the road that led to it.
- Wealth disparity and inflation
- Fear of “others” taking what little people have
- Traumatized populations from decades of war
With populations scared and desperate, they’ll latch on to any demigogue that appears.
But it’s not literally the Holocaust again, so it’s fine /s
I’m trans, god help me…
poland better not be the epicentre again - signed a Polish trans person
Not literally the Holocaust again yet.
I am not familiar with this, would you share what country you are talking about?
Germany for example. The AfD is gaining more and more support by using phrases like “This development that is happening right now, creation of mixed populations to destroy the national identity and thus give our autonomy to the EU - that is simply not bearable!”, “Such humans we should of course dispose of”, “When a [n-word] in my neighborhood coughs at me, I have to know if he is sick or is he not sick.” or “The reason why we are being flooded with culturally foreign people like Arabs, Sinti and Roma is the systematic destruction of civil society.” https://www.volksverpetzer.de/analyse/10-rechtsextreme-zitate-der-afd/
To be fair, they curently decide to see the AFD as an extremist organization.
It is emotionally and intellectually painful using critical thinking while those around you are calling the other side Nazis.
1 Nazis are bad 2 The other side are bad 3 The other side are Nazis Optional: add an example that confirms bias
Both sides calling the others Nazis doesn’t imply that centrists are using critical thinking. It just means that one side is lying. Nazism is a far right ideology.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words.”
— Jean-Paul Sartre
Nazis and tankies are both totalitarian - people just seem to have forgotten the term.
What is it “Tankies” advocate for that is “totalitarian?” The term “tankie” is the new “woke,” it’s a strawman and a bundle of contradictions based on misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and being entirely unfamiliar with Marxism.
I suggest reading Blackshirts and Reds, Communism and Communist movements are and have historically been entirely different in aim, goals, practices, and context from fascism and fascist movements.
Boy I sure do love living through historical events that will likely end up in textbooks in the future
Bold of you to presume that people will be allowed to read about these times, in the future:-).
That’s why I said they’ll likely be in textbooks, no guarantee lol
Fair enough!:-)
My history teacher said that the greatest curse you can give someone is telling them “May you live in interesting times” and boy do I feel that now.
May you live in interesting times…
Edit: Ah, was done below, great minds…
As someone who consumes a lot of ancient history, it can also make you like “Ah yes, another city rises, another is displaced by climate disaster, and another falls due to land mismanagement. ‘Tis the way of things.”
It’s true. I wonder how many ancient Babylonians, Greeks, Chinese, Egyptians, Persians, Romans thought:
“Surely, this empire will last forever! Look upon our works, ye mighty, and despair!” (EDIT: LOL It appears we’re all of one mind remembering this poem. We must be doing something right. XD)
Especially in modern times it’s insanely difficult to imagine the geopolitics shifting drastically, but it’s happened before, it’s happening now. The difference being that the rest of the globe is now much more invested in your shenanigans with your neighbors, but it’s still happening.
What does one do amidst a regime change?
I’m glad I’ve never had to seriously consider it until now. …but it unnerves me that I probably need to start.
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You forgot an important difference between ancient history and now. Now, when the empire falls it has the power to take the biosphere with it.
Nonsense, I look on Ozymandias, king of kings’ works daily and despair!
I was literally thinking about this poem moments ago.
It’s one of the greats.
how does one consume ancient history? do you eat the source documents?
That’s unrealistic— some of them are etched into stone
You need some papurus dust to sprinkle on those, like a lick-a-stick.
Civilizations of a heirarchal centralized type definitely feel like temporary abberations, after reading Graeber and Wengrow
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Hegel remarks somewhere[*] that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce
Something something heglian dialectics, something something new vegas, something something “Fuck caesar,blow his ass away, and Legate Lanius too”
This fantastic opening quote must have also been Marx’s weirdest flex.
Well you know what “they” say: those who study their history - FUCK! - still end up repeating it, when nobody else around does the same.:-(
Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do learn from history are doomed to look on helplessly as everybody else repeats it.And those who try to prevent the teaching of history intend to repeat it
Not always, sometimes they are merely useful idiots who legitimately do not know. Which makes them all the more dangerous bc they don’t come across as supporting Nazis, and they don’t even realize themselves what agenda they are furthering.
Well said
Not my words, it’s another cliche to add to the other ones in the thread. Just as true tho
And due to such things as gerrymandering, we all get to share in the outcome.
Another thing that “they” say:
A stitch in time saves nine
It is not for me to judge exactly, who was not quite there, but very little of what has been done has been performed in secret. People have been watching, and yes even warning us, every step of the way. Now, people are shocked, Shocked I say, SHOCKED, but… we should not be. We all knew, or at least were warned, about the consequences, we simply chose to ignore it all.
e.g. Brexit looks to be something that can never be undone - as in even if it were technically to be done, the UK will never hold such a place of prominence again. It will fade into obscurity, eventually counting itself lucky to join the EU on whatever terms the latter will choose to dictate at that time.
And the USA looks likely to not survive to see that happen - in its current form at least. Assuming that Trump loses the upcoming election, which seems still roughly 50% at this juncture, the Supreme Court shenanigans, the absolute, I mean near-total brokenness of Congress, and the very next election in little more than 4 years time still await. And this time, whoever sits atop the Executive Branch will have the legal authority to assassinate all of their political rivals. Like Brexit, this is by no means over and done, and we can still go so much lower from here.:-(
Which might not be such a bad thing after all, to replace a broken system with a better one, but I do worry about this transition period.
I really have begun to believe that politicians should employ historians to give advice on certain political events by drawing comparisons to previous situations.
That only really works in a benevolent dictatorship. In a democracy, the masses can vote for reality-rejection candidates.
It’s a pity democracy seems to be better than all the alternatives in practice, cause in principle there should be ways to improve things more. Inevitably though all other forms turn into draconian crap. Well, democracy does sometimes too, but less often.
What’s odd about today’s “democracy” is how increasingly little government itself matters, next to corporations that are stronger than nations.
Because corporations are not democratic
Sure, we have democratic political systems, but the economic systems are very much not. Since when can you vote un your workplace? It your boss tells you to do something, you do it, or risk losing your livelihood, the thing that you depend upon for survival
That’s not very democratic
The Neoliberal ideology, with its core principle of making Money the greatest Power, above the State which is the Power controlled by the vote of citizens, was always meant to destroy Democracy.
Whilst the theatre used to distract us has been different, we’ve been going in the same direction as Russia when it comes to the vote: making it a meaningless act whilst we’re told it’s “democratic”.
Unsurprisingly as people felt more and more powerless, pushed around, exploited and unfairly treated all the while being told this is Democracy, they turned more and more to those selling something else than Democracy.
It seems the natural end state of Neoliberal Capitalism is Fascism.
Cyberpunk was supposed to be fiction, not a blueprint :(
Just wait for the cyberpunk crossover with The Handmaid’s Tale. This is the worst timeline.
Government could choose to reign these corporations in, but the money the give officials makes them choose not too
“It’s okay, I’ll enjoy my retirement long before corporations start buying literal states, springing up company towns, employing workers younger than my current children, and buying and selling people via contracts, whilst waging open war with drones and wageslave conscripts.” –Most Politicians as they watch their green line go up, probably
Right, so whether they “can’t” or simply “won’t”, either way they don’t, and the problem just grows and grows with no bounds.
It’s like democracy is the least bad system…
A well crafted political system is one that stays uncorrupted the longest (or can recover less violently from corruption).
“The Official Committee of Learning From Previous Blunders” lol what-if.
cries in enviro. sci
Same. I haven’t used my history degree at all. It has just enabled the “oh, fuck” overdrive in my brain over the last several years. I hate it.
If you think it hasn’t happend before, check again, nothing in history is new
When have we had AI so good the turing test lost it’s whole meaning overnight?
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I’ve checked my PC looking for the tiny man managing my local llm, no luck yet but perhaps they’re smaller than I thought…
Is ai learning training data it got from itself?
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They sure put a ton of money into sweeping it under the rug that exploiting workers at near-slavery wages is always what makes these “technological revolutionary marvels” actually tick.
Whether it’s new FoxConn chips, EV batteries, “free shipping”, or LLMs.
Every. Time.
Be a better person. Less ignorant, more useful.
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Uh… No.
geopolitics included?
Geopolitics is technically geography iirc.
History majors rise up
