The comments are even worse. The fact this rhetoric made it even there genuinely makes me feels terrible. Are even other transfems this liberal or is this fed work?
The comments are even worse. The fact this rhetoric made it even there genuinely makes me feels terrible. Are even other transfems this liberal or is this fed work?
Pretending that a federal government run by christofascists and one run by liberals has no material difference for the lives of trans, LGBT and marginalized peoples more broadly is just silly.
You can argue that one will eventually lead to the other anyway, or that rejection of the already existing elements of liberal fascism is worth sacrificing the short term material comfort to those groups, but not even acknowledging that sacrifice is callous ignorance at best.
There is a slight (yet on a individual level- potentially immense) difference between the two, yes. Yet both have to be understood as part of the same system that makes largely empty promises, and then also very real threats of oppression in turn, as a means of coercing participation and manufacturing consent. They both actively and undeniably play roles- direct roles at that, even for the western “liberal left”- in the oppression of minorities and the broader proletariat alike, with every small difference being triumphed and marketed out as some immense change even as they collude to put migrants in cages, maintain settler-colonial deprivation and genocide, brutal wars abroad, societal stagnation and “moderation” over progress, and the prison-industrial complex and other systemic racial inequalities.
It’s the difference between the slaveowner who whips their slaves, and the one who would like to present themselves as better than that (but resorts to whipping the slaves all the same, when push comes to shove). The difference between the imperialist who commits wanton slaughter, and one who only does so after facing resistance- after which all sorts of smears and dehumanizing accusations are leveled, to attempt to justify the fact. It’s the difference between the active racist/bigot, and someone who doesn’t genuinely hold such values- but will use these bigoted values’ weight in society all the same, to exploit minorities of all sorts, in all fashions, so as to come out on top and maintain their privilege. Which is worse? Sure, there’s a minute (yet individually, possibly immense) difference- but they both maintain the same system and play their roles consistently as such- and it could be said that the only meaningful characteristic between the two is that one is a flaming hypocrite, a backstabber and a betrayer, who holds no true values- for better or worse.
And yes- there are LGBT, POC, and other marginalized liberals nowadays- but each and every time when faced with and understanding these circumstances, failing these tests of basic humanity consistently defines what it means to be liberal in modern economic sense of the word.
Personally, as someone who increasingly falls under the crosshairs of western, particularly Christofascist, political demagoguery (being trans, a POC and specifically ethnic Chinese, technically an immigrant, a dirty commie, etc)- if you ask me, to choose the “lesser evil”- particularly in these most eventful of times, where active, brutal, industrialized genocide is ongoing in Gaza, where we are on the verge of a third world war, and where the internet and globalization mean that now more than ever, we can see the impact of western imperialism worldwide, and we can understand the alternatives which are increasingly asserting themselves- if you ask me, if our comfort is to be bought with blood, I want nothing to do with it. The myth of the “lesser evil” is all but dead outside of a few still-remaining (primarily because they’re not costly in any sense to the imperialist system) cultural token issues- and our societies and livelihoods are collapsing and anyone with feet on the ground can recognize it. With all this to bear- IMO, someone who decides to stand with the “lesser evil” deserves all the evil they will almost inevitably receive- even if they’re trans, even if they’re POC, or an immigrant, etc- as someone who is all those things, that’s my view on it- intersectionality is important, but ultimately we are all still human, and our actions define who we are just the same- and there is no greater failing to be had, than to side with genocide. And all for what? For a few degrading table scraps on a metaphorical string, to be jerked away, and played with back-and-forth, while the world burns around us? Sign me out.
You seem to consider acknowledging that fewer people will suffer with one option than with the other as “standing with” that option. It’s not about poc, queer trans and LGBT liberals taking some kind of deal with the devil; marginalized peoples are far more likely to already have disengaged politically. It’s the fact that under one regime, more of societies burdens will be borne by those who least have the ability to bear them. If a system is to be resisted and revolted against, why sit back and let the system be as cruel as possible to those who least deserve it?
What you describe after is pretty much the definition of a “deal with the devil.” All that said, deals with the devil aside, let’s just get to the meat of the argument- why should societies’ burdens be borne by anyone but those guilty of perpetuating them? And why should we- as minorities no less, as the marginalized and disenfranchised- pass the buck, metaphorically, onto even more vulnerable people on the other side of the world, in migrant camps, in the injustice system, or elsewhere? The system has to end somewhere, at some point, where people- proles, whether it be the straight, white men, or people of whatever many layers of intersectional identity and circumstance- decide to call an end to all this. All playing into this system does is divide us, destroy our moral credibility, and strengthen the system which also directly perpetuates our own suffering as well as those of others. And as minorities, it only goes without saying that if we can go about our experiences without learning empathy from it- if we try to dump the problem on someone else undeserving- who’s to say that the tables won’t turn?
Who deserves it least? Me, just because I’m a trans POC? Should I pass the buck on to some random Palestinians, migrants, some even more disenfranchised “other” unfortunate enough to be next in line on the chopping block? And where does that constant betrayal and abandonment of any sort of human decency end? Why must I participate, to strengthen my own oppressors?
I’m not sitting back and letting the system be as cruel as possible- I am not and will not be silent, similarly I take care of me and mine and those I can around me- and furthermore, I am hoping to either insulate myself from the ongoing and intensifying crises, or leave the west altogether in time. Short of outright rebellion (in the present circumstances- it would be a quick martyrdom) there is not much else that I feel I can do, and sure, that may be lackluster- but if nothing else, I am trying not to be part of the problem, I will not facilitate the problem, and I do not think I would want to live with myself, contributing to part of the problem.
You seem to think walking away from the systems of power weakens them. In your desperation to not be part of the problem, you refuse to be part of a solution. I can’t blame you, it’s a rather bleak situation. But I see more suffering in the world where people give up the struggle out of hopelessness than the one where people keep fighting.
Holly, you misunderstood @SadArtemis@lemmygrad.ml’s point so fucking badly.
No, the point is NOT that not voting is supposed to somehow weaken the system, of course it doesn’t, we know that. And no, it has nothing to do with “giving up the struggle out of hopelessness”, the literal opposite in fact.
The point is that NO as we keep telling you all over and over again but you can’t seem to ever get, Biden WILL NOT keep the right from oppressing trans peoples nor any other minorities, not even a little bit, the fact that so many peoples are still so convinced of the contrary after a full term with Biden as president during which minorities’ rights kept being taken away just like during Trump’s term is mind boggling, I don’t know what kind of self gaslighting Biden supporter practice but it sure works well.
The idea that voting for Biden is a solution to anything at all, let alone to the right’s attack on minority rights, is an illusion, a phantasm, a fable, whatever you want to call it, it’s not real, it’s not a thing and it never was a thing. Whatever you think would happen during Trump’s presidency would either happen under Biden all the same or not happen even with Trump, plain and simple.
If you want to believe in the illusion that somehow the party that has never protected any minority from the right will decide to protect minorities from the right this time around and consider that supporting a genocide is a fair price for it you do you, but the peoples who base their politics on material reality instead of vibes won’t no matter how many time you repeat tired liberal tropes.
I wonder why these sort of “We must vote for genocide Joe to stop genocide Trump” sorts always have that exact same blind spot, doesn’t matter how many people tell them something, or what kind of format, they just refuse to accept that the two parties are not fundamentally different enough to make voting for either of them a worthwhile way to spend one’s time. Every single one of them speaks like this, in a “if voting for Biden saves even one life, it would be worth it” very lib hypothetical.
I’m guessing they behave this way because they aren’t in a position to actually do anything of substance to help people right now, and so want to find an excuse as to why supporting active harm against a different flavour of the same active harm is somehow some sort of “praxis” (that is incredibly low effort and something they can actually achieve at present.)
Liberals ignoring what we say tend to do so to protect their own egos, they don’t want to feel like “bad guys” and want to feel like they’re actively making the world a better place through their actions and beliefs, so these kind of…“vooter leftists” that have been popping up lately might have a similar thing going on, they always act like the only options are voting or nothing, so I think for them those are the only options right now, they just aren’t in a position to do anything right now, no education, no volunteering, no protesting, only voting. So telling them that voting will not help anyone and only provides passive support for the bourgeoisie democracy is translated by their brain worms into “You should do nothing and watch as people die.” which is probably why they are so hostile to the idea of not voting and act like we said something completely different to what we actually said to them.
Templates workshopped on DemocraticUnderground, no doubt. They’ve done that kind of shit for years; you can’t pay me to think this wasn’t developed by a committee of too-online liberal smuglords thinking they’d crafted a silver bullet for the werewolves they regard us as.
It does seem to have worked on some leftists in the states. The one who was here has been a hexbear user for a while, so for them to come out with this “vote blue no matter who” stuff is worrying. First Lemmygrad, now we have one from hexbear, it does kind of make me wonder if some attempt at “converting” people has taken place, using fearmongering to shut down their critical thinking skills and turn them into functionally back into liberals.
I think it’s pretty damn sad that this is the best they can do. I guess they’ve already tried the “we can push Biden left!” thing and know that is bullshit, so all they’ve got is “If Trump is elected, he’ll personally come to your house and murder everyone you love! He’s a scary cheeto man!” I should probably just have that Malcolm X speech about the Dixiecrats saved and ready to copy-paste whenever anyone brings up voting for Biden. This is such an old and cliche liberal tactic, sad to see people falling for it.
I’m not washing my hands in your trough of blood just to keep the fucking settlers alive. I will not die here with my name counted next to the fucking genociders. It’s a non-starter. I’d literally rather the country fell than be complicit.
The liberals will bend over backwards to do everything the christofascists want them to. (Look at Roe vs Wade), there’s no reason to think Biden’s administration will do anything to stop the republicans after the election, seeing as they’ve done nothing to stop them before the election either, and let them get away with whatever they want.
Powers that the Biden administration will do nothing with are powers that a Trump administration will do evil with.
Those are the same powers that the Biden administration will stand idly by and watch as the republicans, who aren’t even in power, do that exact evil, regardless of who is in charge. One party may be doing the horrific actions, but the other party will never do anything to stop them, making them complicit.
And if you think Biden has “done nothing” you very clearly haven’t been paying attention to the evils enacted under this administration.
Evil that they’ll still do regardless even if they aren’t elected as they have throughout demonstrated they were capable and willing to do.
Man just shut the fuck up, I grew up underclass in a ‘left liberal’ government as a LBGT+ person and all I got was violence, poverty and no prospects. I would take growing up in modern china every single goddam day.
No excuse for this sort of hostility towards another comrade, especially right off the bat.
spoiler
inb4 “they disagree with me so they’re a lib so I can be as big of an asshole as I want to them”
Im tired of people telling me I should vote for the ‘lesser evil’ when the lesser evil gave me one meal a day for most of my childhood, created an enviroment where random people would attack me on the street and robbed any prospect of me ever starting a family or owning a house.
No, there is no material difference between both sides of slavery incoperated when you’re poor and lgbt+.
They weren’t telling you to vote for the lesser evil (“You can argue that one will eventually lead to the other anyway, or that rejection of the already existing elements of liberal fascism is worth sacrificing the short term material comfort to those groups”).
And if you disagree with a comrade, give them at least one reply where you engage with them as a person instead of a dismissive “shut the fuck up” right away.
Im sorry but its a naive perpsective I can only imagine coming out of the mouth of someone who grew up in the liberal core with material advantages. Thats why the ‘no really we just need to give short term material benefits to these groups’ take is dogshit.
Tell that to the LGBT+ person living in a tent city in America. What material benefits? Have you seen the homeless in America? None of those benefits exist for them, they are already dying. All that happens is the more materially well off people can goto sleep in the gated communities while they drive past tent cities every day and get served by the poors working three jobs just to keep a shelter.
Taking these takes into a communist space is silly.
They weren’t saying this either. How can you fly off the handle at a comrade without even reading what they’re writing? Their argument is:
They’re saying Biden will do nothing for you, but that there is a difference between doing nothing for you and actively trying to harm you as much as possible. They are not using this to say you should vote Biden. The argument is “people see this difference so we look silly pretending there is no difference whatsoever.” And they even highlight better arguments for not voting Biden that don’t ignore that difference (“one will eventually lead to the other anyway”).
They quite literally said that, I quoted them.
Accepting the framing of this issue sets us back, it agrees that actually there is a difference. Im telling you from the underclasses POV, from someone who grew up with my own countries ‘biden’ that no, things actually got worse.
You see when liberals elect leftists, they basically say ‘well sucks to be you’ to anyone who doesnt live in a left-liberal demographic. Any and all comrades on the poverty line basically get thrown to the wolfs in right-wing states; all that happens is the liberal core starts to placate the liberal left voters and demonize anyone under them; see the ‘chavs’ discourse in the UK, im not sure what the equivilant would be in America; probably those on wellfare.
Conditions get worse, income gap gets worse, liberals tell us to keep voting for the person who will throw them some scraps while ignoring everyone else; I say no more.