many of these states and their governments are openly hostile to communist elements, but a communist party actively opposing their government would risk destabilising it and then playing themselves directly into the hands of the imperialist states. an indefinite “united front” would be desirable, especially in countries like iran, but it seems all leftist organisations in these states have either decided to fully support the government in everything, becoming controlled opposition (KPRF in Russia) or western puppets like (MEK) or whatever the fuck the “leftist opposition” in russia, belarus is.
Coolest Mario I’ve ever heard of.
Oh shit. Wrong post!
a communist party actively opposing their government would risk destabilising it and then playing themselves directly into the hands of the imperialist states
Remember that the capitalist economic policies of those liberal governments inherently and inevitably lead to contradictions, instability and crisis. You can be 100% sure, that they’ll become unstable without communists doing anything. Especially considering outside pressure, sanctions, wars etc. If there can be any hope of long term stability, they must be opposed by national communists.
Also these states, like any capitalist state, are nothing but an instrument of class warfare against the working class. The very moment those capitalists decide they stands to gain more from selling out their nations by becoming comprador capitalists who represent outside imperialists interests, they’ll just do it. In fact, they already tried it multiple times in all of those nations. Putin tried it. You can have critical support and temporary alliances for national liberation, but ultimately, liberalism is not at odds with outside imperialism. They can find arrangements, they are compatible, they have common class interests and they will have to be fought and defeated to defeat imperialism.
While the role of communists in the imperial core is to fight their own imperialist, they should also trust, that comrades in other countries know what’s best and which time and strategy is the correct one to act against their bourgeois. And they should be supported uncritically and above their liberal capitalists states, when they ask for it. International solidarity is amongst workers not with capitalist states.
I believe Franz Fanon made the argument that in some developing countries, the domestic class divide is less significant than the international class divide, and that there can be a logic to persuing a class truce. If a country becomes colonized, the domestic bourgeoisie stands to lose their positions (at least potentially) so there’s a greater degree of shared interests. This is in contrast to a more old school perspective, which would argue that a class truce isn’t really possible, that the bourgeoisie will never let up, and that attempting to persue that course is reactionary and opens the door to opportunism.
I don’t have a strong opinion on it because I’m in the imperial core, I think either approach can be valid depending on the circumstances.
Some section of the domestic bourgeois in colonized countries always has the option to betray their nation by becoming comprador capitalist that represent outside imperialists interests. The working class doesn’t have that option, so there is still a fundamental class divide. But the capitalist class is also devided in that case and there might be temporary alliances with the capitalists who aren’t compradors to fight for national liberation as a prerequisite for revolution.
thats my country in a nutshell.
our burgeoise is the opposite of anti imperialist.
Mao argued basically the same thing, and that’s the whole point of “New Democracy” besides the issue of development of relations of production, since China still had heavy feudal elements. That was why Mao supported a temporary alliance with the “patriotic bourgeoisie” against colonial forces, but he was quite clear that you can’t let that circumstance become cemented.
I think when comparing the situation from WWI Russia and this one the problem we run into is that the WWI scenario was on a much more even keel in terms of the relative power of the imperialist alliances than it is now. In WWI, if Germany or Russia lost, the balance of power was such that they could most certainly not be fully subjugated to the other side. In the modern day scenario however, they west would be more than capable of economically subjugating Russia.
That is the reason that revolutionary defeatism was the right strategy at the time. This time however, I think it would actually be best to instead take the complete opposite approach. It is now in fact paramount to take the materialistically correct position and instead acknowledge how the liberals in both Russia and Iran are effectively impeding the resistance against imperialism via their own personal interest of retaining power or the fact that even in foreign policy they are hedging their bets instead of uncompromisingly allying with China. In that respect, the communist parties should actively take the position that the only way of actually securing the country not just from outside but from the inside as well, is to socialize the means of production in the hands of the state, which will be the only entity capable of actually utilizing it to not only secure the positions of the working people, but of maximizing security by any means necessary.
The way I think about it, the more I think revolutionary defeatism only made sense within the context of WWI. Seriously, try to apply revolutionary defeatism to WWII:
Are British socialists supposed to wave around “neither London nor Berlin” signs while the Blitz is happening?
Are French socialists supposed to stay home while the Nazis overthrow the French republic and establish a collaborating regime in its place?
Are USian socialists supposed to draft polemics about how the IJN bombing Pearl Harbor was just inter-imperialist rivalry and that USian socialists should focus on overthrowing the regime in Washington DC instead?
There’s a reason why the CPC completely stopped hostilities with the KMT as soon as Japanese imperialists invaded Manchuria, even going so far as to wear nationalist uniforms.
Revolutionary defeatism could still be the right strategy for communists in the imperial core though, right? For countries outside the imperial core it’s often still national liberation and the fight against compradors that’s a prerequisite for communist revolution.
Oh yes, absolutely
I think ‘critical’ support means exactly that. Where you can support anti-imperialism as actions in themselves, go for it. But that doesn’t extend to supporting the government in all things they do, and weakening it will often be the correct move. Communist parties should be organising and building support, much like anywhere, really.
If a ‘real’ Russian leftist party found themselves the opportunity to destabilise the Russian government, that’s not inherently a positive thing (like it would be in the USA). But if they had even some meaningful chance of consequently getting in power - Then they should do it.
Oppositional capitalist states is slightly preferable to a single hegemonic power, but is so far from the ideal that it’s nothing more than a practical stop-gap, and all practical chances at revolution should be chased.
Leftists cannot afford to cower just because their government might be an extremely limited ally against the US.
I guess I would make a difference between Iran and Russia, for example. Russia is geopolitically strong enough and has a weak enough communist opposition inside that I think revolutionary defeatism is a good strategy to follow, I mean you should have contact with other communist revolutionary defeatist orgs in the west to push for peace in both blocks, reduce military expenditure, and when (if) war times come, push for revolution on both sides.
In Iran, given its much weaker geopolitical position, it doesn’t have in my opinion a strong enough standing to weather the consequences of a revolution, like, probably would be immediately invaded by the west as soon as a power vacuum/civil war broke out, and wouldn’t receive meaningful help from China.
Just my two cents
At the bare minimum I think they should always condemn foreign aggression against their state, even if they’re harshly critical of the current administration.
“Aggression” is doing a lot of work there because people always call the other side the aggressor, even when the other side is just acting in its own defense, in which case communists should probably support that side.
Anytime Amerikkka goes to war with a country they are the aggressor. So if Amerikkka is planning war against your country you should oppose it full stop, regardless of how shit the current administration is.
I agree, but there are wars where America is not a significant participant.
This post brings up Iran and Russia so I took those to be the main examples we were talking about.
Fair enough
I think they should always condemn foreign aggression against their state
the proletariat knows no nation.
Imperialism knows no border
However they want, ideally guided by material dialectics.
You’re just giving up on the idea of there being a correct answer, at complete odds with dialectical materialism
Im giving up the idea that I am in any position to dictate their moves while not understanding their material conditions from a ground level
That doesn’t mean “however they want,” it just means “I don’t know.” You not having access to the basis for what the best answers are does not mean we should endorse the idea that there’s no better or worse approach.
I think you’re purposefully reading my comment as disingenuously as you can.
Give me one united front that didn’t end in thousands of murdered communists. There’s no common ground with the bourgeoisie, ever. These countries being strong opponents to the imperialist force of the USA shouldn’t be an excuse for communist parties to stray away from their revolutionary goal. Sure, maybe don’t start a revolution in the case that your country is actively defending against an imperialist war, but revolutionary action and uncompromising theory should never stop in the hope that the capitalists will respect a common interest. Their real enemy is and will always be the working class.
Serious question: how is Russia anti-imperialist while India gets branded as imperialist in online leftist discourse? Is it just racism?
I personally haven’t seen India get branded as imperialist and that’s even factoring in super racist Chinese and Pakistani accounts who do nothing but shit on Indians for asinine racist reasons. At best, people hate India for being soft Zionist and for Islamophobia.
i havent heard of India being considered imperialist, it is just more neutral towards the west (than Russia) + has fascist tendencies. so it wouldnt be fair to call it imperialist nor anti imperialist imho.
I agree with your assessment completely, but it really doesn’t seem to be shared by other people
if i see anyone call India imperialist I will definitely call them out
Is the west in direct opposition to the Indian geopolitical stance to the degree it is against Russia?
Read my comment again, and yes, the west has historically been in direct oppostition to India, and they definitely were from 2000 to 2016. And India is closer to Russia than it is to the west.
It was an honest question, I’m super ignorant to politics of India unfortunately
That’s fair
This is just me thinking out loud, but i think this highlights how socialism can only really work as an international movement. If the communist party tries to destabilize its country, the imperialists will fill in the power gap. If their country is already imperialist then they must fight against their government (as we theoretically should be doing in the imperial core).
Its somewhat of a miracle that some states have achieved dictatorship of the proletariat stage, but i think its because they fought off the imperialist forces in their own country and didnt have an anti-imperialist bourgeoisie or whatever you’d classify the Iranian government.
They shouldn’t collaborate with foreign non-communists, I can’t see anything good coming of that. Beyond that, just do normal communist party things.
there are no communist movements popular enough to destabilise these countries
I think the way you’re phrasing the question is problematic bordering on chauvinism, but the content of your question has me thinking in different terms.
Is revolutionary defeatism a viable strategy for countries that are opponents of the empire?
I think the way you’re phrasing the question is problematic bordering on chauvinism
sorry if it came off that way, care to explain why?
First it’s semantically a “should” question. This is commonly a normative framing as in “they should be doing this” and “they shouldn’t be doing that”. Second, it’s about “doing”, meaning concrete actions.
As communists, our understanding of history shows us that actions must be matched to real conditions on the ground as well as aligned with theory.
You asked about 3 different countries, and the inclusion of Iran shows that you can’t possibly be personally steeped in the exact conditions on the ground in all three countries. This means you’re asking a sort of hypothetical (theory) question about the normative standards for actions by other people in other places in conditions you don’t understand.
Essentially, any answer you come up with by asking such a question can only be normative imposition on the actions of others from a position of ignorance, or what we call chauvinism.
I do think that there’s something you are trying to explore that is worth exploring, which is to use those countries as examples of a theoretical category (anti-imperialists) and then to discuss the theory of the natural laws that produce human societies and arrive at some hypotheses for what will be most effective for abstract societies within the category to move them and the world towards communism.
What’s not worth exploring is what do outsiders think should be done by others who have the real experience of what conditions are like in each of these nations and have the responsibility and accountability to themselves, their families, and their comrades to carry themselves within their context.
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Idk what’s so badly phrased about it. It’s a good question. I myself have been wondering if there’s any communists in Iran lately because of current events and what their opinions are.
depends on the specifics of their situations. banning english speakers is a good way to prevent being used by the US state department but that might not be practical
Even if we’re taking a slightly goofy approach like this, it might be better to direct hostility to people who are foreign-educated rather than merely knowing English, which in some countries is most people.
do you actually think that the US state department only targets english speakers?
of course not but they’re way worse at it especially when the people running the show are the current flavor of racist rather than the woke imperialism kind.
I don’t really think that’d be effective. The CIA has translators and can recruit native speakers and a lot of historic anti-colonialist organizers were educated in the west and spoke good English (or other colonizer languages) so you’re alienating a lot of potentially good allies with that policy.
might not be practical