China is a fascist ethnostate, Russia is another neoliberal capitalist state, North Korea IMO cannot be described as socialist, Vietnam is pretty cool but mixed and only partially socialist, Cuba is not great tbh just in general, Venezuela is horrible, the Nordic states are just Social Democrat states, Israel has multiple worker co-ops but that doesn’t change the fact that they’re still a genocidal ethnostate, that just about covers all the tankie countries.
I haven’t seen a single Marxist in favor of Israel, though, you’re just inventing people at this point. Unless you’re trying to describe entirely different groups under the same general umbrella, but that confuses the convesation.
The people supporting China, Cuba, Vietnam, Venezuela, etc. and “critically supporting” Russia in its anti-Western stance are generally Marxists, and none of these people support Israel, and none fully support Russia. Israel has some few people that support the faux-Socialist “Kibbutz” system, but these people are anti-China, anti-Cuba, anti-Vietnam, anti-Venezuela, etc.
That’s why I am saying it’s confusing the conversation, your “tankie” doesn’t hold all of the views you mentioned, you’re describing separate groups under one label, a label almost always used for Marxists, and as such it leads to obfuscation of your actual message, hence confusion from other users.
Riiiight, that’s why on a lemmygrad post literally defending Russian war camps as western propaganda (and how the oppression of Uyghurs was completely fabricated) I got downvoted to hell for even suggesting that China was complicit in Uyghur ethnic cleansing, as if they’re not de facto enforcing Putonghua onto all ethnic groups within its territory - but they said it’s fine since why is teaching people skills and languages bad…
I’m sure you’d make the same argument that it’s actually to the benefit of a third of African counties, India and the Philippines for their official language to be English. See the British empire just wanted to teach them languages and free market skills so they could escape their “poverty and backwardness” (the literal words the Chinese gov uses for Xinjiang residents) - so I don’t see how your point about “none fully support Russia” stands when hardcore MLs are literally full out defending any actions Russia and China take as not only justified but morally good…
If you think China is fascist, you’re brainwashed. There isnt another explanation for thinking the most democratic nation currently on the planet is fascist.
China perfectly fits the definition of a fascist ethnostate. Their economy is indirectly managed by the government while having capitalist elements (state control is the only “socialist” elements), they enforce a language, one ethnicity is clearly depicted as the “true Chinese ethnicity” (despite China having many), censorship is rampant, they’re committing a genocide, and at the end of the day THEY’RE NOT EVEN SOCIALIST.
Oh, you’re an idealist stuck two centuries behind everyone else. Capital can and will crush everything you build through your ideology, so drop the anarcho part until capital is eliminated globally, or enjoy being a slave to capital your entire existence.
I’m confused? What part of that makes you think I support capital? China literally has billionaires and factory owners, how does me pointing that out make me a capitalist?
Reread, I never suggested you support capital, I suggested your outdated naive ideology has no chance against capital. As to your second point, reread some basic theory as to why dengism was adopted in China and how it has successfully outlasted the ussr and all other left wing movements in history while being true to its ml roots.
So my ideology doesn’t stand a chance against capital because it hasn’t embraced capitalism? Also Dengism is absolutely not an ML ideology, “socialism with Chinese characteristics” is fascism with state capitalist characteristics. If you have a “ML” society that has a massive government, enages in genocide, has powerful capitalists, private property, rampant corruption, and generally horrible for the workers (see working conditions and labor strikes in China)
Ask yourself this, how do you think your revolution, whatever revolution you think is necessary to install your ideology, is going to go 50 years after it’s successful and you’ve been attacked constantly on all sides and from within by the enemy?
Turns out we can answer that, you won’t make it 50 years, you won’t make it five if you stick to principles doomed to fail.
China isn’t a fascist state, they’re not an imperialist state. They’re an unapologetic dictatorship of the proletariat, and the only country still around that has executed billionaires, plural. Are they communist? No, no state can be communist given that statelessness is required. But they have an open democracy where all citizens can participate, a government that explicitly follows the will of the people, and an economy that favors the workers and has pulled more people out of poverty than all other economic systems combined. All without really violating human rights.
They’re on unapologetic dictatorship of the proletariat…
Lol. Lmao. If the proletariat holds all the power in China, why are their wages and working conditions worse than they are in other capitalist countries? Why do they have billionaires? Why can’t they join unions other than the one that’s run by the state?
…they have an open democracy where all citizens can participate…
Does that include the Uyghurs? Does that include the Tibetans?
All without without really violating human rights.
You can’t come up with a couple of human rights that the PRC may have violated? Not a single one. Yeah righto champ 👍
Capitalism will run your defenseless little commune over and salt the earth where it stood just to spite you. Ask me how I know: what did this dogmade country do to my people’s leaders? Again, and again, and again, until the closest thing we have to earnest “civil rights leaders” anymore are sitting in prison under false government slander of being foreign-backed agents?
You want to talk about “deeply unserious” and don’t even have a meterstick to measure how deep in the water you are, or floaties to keep from sinking-- you clearly can’t swim.
If your revolution requires abandoning your principles and installing a fascistic leadership then what’s the fucking point of your revolution in the first place?
I’ll just say, having lived in Vietnam for quite some time, it certainly is a much better country than China, but describing it as “mixed” and “partially socialist” understates its issues. Corruption is rampant and open, and is the way of things in both the private and public sectors.
As just one example, the Saigon Metro project began construction not long before I stopped living there in 2012, and was scheduled to finish in 2018. Rampant corruption with that project has meant multiple times it’s just stalled with seemingly no progress made for years, and the Japanese construction company hired to do some of the work threatened to pull out over cost overruns caused by the corruption. It’s a lovely country in so many ways, and its government is so much better than those that tankies usually love to praise in terms of the degrees of gross authoritarian bs, but it’s got a long it could improve in many regards.
Sure. Except if you allow those in power to define the meaning of demos, every single country that ever existed - including Nazi Germany - was democratic. As a result, the term democratic becomes tautological in that it is always true regardless of the system involved.
So yes, your statement that China is a nation is true.
I’ve lived in China for work. It’s genuinely no different than say, the Denmark in terms of “repression” except instead of arresting those that threaten capital, they arrest those that threaten the people (usually on behalf of capital). It’s not an anarchist paradise, they haven’t achieved communism, but they’re likely the furthest thing from fascism that’s still a nation. Anyone that claims to be on the left and dislikes their methods or compares them to fascists are genuinely either not on the left, or are baby lefties stuck in the 1800s in terms of reading and philosophy.
Thank you for the interesting answer. But seeing as you had to actually live there to get this impression, aren’t you being a bit strict on who’s (adult) left? Between western and Chinese propaganda, and a lack of [access to] Chinese critical sources, I think it’s incredibly hard to know what’s what without actually visiting. I mean, you can read a lot of Marx, Lenin and Mao, as well as contemporary critical theory, development studies, political economy and so on, without feeling like you’re able to get a clear view. I know I don’t.
I’m being purposefully hyperbolic to people that think investing in local communities is a genocide. Realistically yes, you can have leftist beliefs while believing anti left fascist propaganda. A whole lot of why the Weimar Republic fell was socialists believing fascists over their own comrades. But really if the only actual sources for a thing are people paid to explicitly be against communism, maybe don’t believe it. Read some Chinese history, look into the myths like mao ordering sparrows to be killed and read why that’s not a thing that happened and where those stories first started.
You will never have a clear view of anything regarding people, were too chaotic of a thing to objectively record, but you can get a much better idea if you understand the underlying motivations of those doing the recording. Chinese propaganda wants to entrench Chinese power for a China controlled by the people. American propaganda wants to entrench the ruling classes power for a China controlled by the American ruling class. Seems the biases are therefore a little uneven.
The chinese web novel reverand insanity literally got banned for criticizing china. The guy who wrote it can’t write it anymore and you can’t even pirate the novel in china. cuz its been deleted off the chinese internet.
That’s nice and all, but there are literally millions of critics that aren’t banned, whose work is publicly available, who criticize from a place of wanting to improve, not destroy.
China is ML, and if there’s anything MLs live to do, it’s criticize each other.
The vast majority of people that actually get banned from producing certain works either spread entirely false propaganda created by western intelligence agencies ( uighur “genocide” ) or want to remove the government entirely and replace it with a kleptocracy like the US has.
Could you perhaps share any authors, works, blogs or whatever in English that critique Chinese politics in the manner you’re describing?
Edit: Let me rephrase after having done some searching. If Marxists wanted non-Chinese government and non-CIA funded information about the conditions and struggles of Chinese workers, where would be a good place to find it?
China is a fascist ethnostate, Russia is another neoliberal capitalist state, North Korea IMO cannot be described as socialist, Vietnam is pretty cool but mixed and only partially socialist, Cuba is not great tbh just in general, Venezuela is horrible, the Nordic states are just Social Democrat states, Israel has multiple worker co-ops but that doesn’t change the fact that they’re still a genocidal ethnostate, that just about covers all the tankie countries.
Russia has long reached the end state of neoliberal capitalism, fascism. The US is currently transitioning.
Israel is a tankie country now? Don’t they support Palestine? Let’s not rob tankies of their only correct opinion!
Kinda how they believe Chinas genocide is justified Tankies have no real problem with genocide
I haven’t seen a single Marxist in favor of Israel, though, you’re just inventing people at this point. Unless you’re trying to describe entirely different groups under the same general umbrella, but that confuses the convesation.
I’m using the term “tankie” to describe fake leftists, Israel has a lot of fake leftists and so called “Labor-Zionists”
The people supporting China, Cuba, Vietnam, Venezuela, etc. and “critically supporting” Russia in its anti-Western stance are generally Marxists, and none of these people support Israel, and none fully support Russia. Israel has some few people that support the faux-Socialist “Kibbutz” system, but these people are anti-China, anti-Cuba, anti-Vietnam, anti-Venezuela, etc.
That’s why I am saying it’s confusing the conversation, your “tankie” doesn’t hold all of the views you mentioned, you’re describing separate groups under one label, a label almost always used for Marxists, and as such it leads to obfuscation of your actual message, hence confusion from other users.
The label itself is meaningless
I mean, I agree that the term is meaningless, but surely you can see why your usage of it to describe Zionists caused confusion, right?
Understood
Riiiight, that’s why on a lemmygrad post literally defending Russian war camps as western propaganda (and how the oppression of Uyghurs was completely fabricated) I got downvoted to hell for even suggesting that China was complicit in Uyghur ethnic cleansing, as if they’re not de facto enforcing Putonghua onto all ethnic groups within its territory - but they said it’s fine since why is teaching people skills and languages bad…
I’m sure you’d make the same argument that it’s actually to the benefit of a third of African counties, India and the Philippines for their official language to be English. See the British empire just wanted to teach them languages and free market skills so they could escape their “poverty and backwardness” (the literal words the Chinese gov uses for Xinjiang residents) - so I don’t see how your point about “none fully support Russia” stands when hardcore MLs are literally full out defending any actions Russia and China take as not only justified but morally good…
If you think China is fascist, you’re brainwashed. There isnt another explanation for thinking the most democratic nation currently on the planet is fascist.
China perfectly fits the definition of a fascist ethnostate. Their economy is indirectly managed by the government while having capitalist elements (state control is the only “socialist” elements), they enforce a language, one ethnicity is clearly depicted as the “true Chinese ethnicity” (despite China having many), censorship is rampant, they’re committing a genocide, and at the end of the day THEY’RE NOT EVEN SOCIALIST.
It’s amazing how you neolibs expose yourselves. You sure you wouldn’t be more comfortable on reddit little buddy?
I’m an Anarcho-Sydicalist -_-
Oh, you’re an idealist stuck two centuries behind everyone else. Capital can and will crush everything you build through your ideology, so drop the anarcho part until capital is eliminated globally, or enjoy being a slave to capital your entire existence.
I’m confused? What part of that makes you think I support capital? China literally has billionaires and factory owners, how does me pointing that out make me a capitalist?
Reread, I never suggested you support capital, I suggested your outdated naive ideology has no chance against capital. As to your second point, reread some basic theory as to why dengism was adopted in China and how it has successfully outlasted the ussr and all other left wing movements in history while being true to its ml roots.
So my ideology doesn’t stand a chance against capital because it hasn’t embraced capitalism? Also Dengism is absolutely not an ML ideology, “socialism with Chinese characteristics” is fascism with state capitalist characteristics. If you have a “ML” society that has a massive government, enages in genocide, has powerful capitalists, private property, rampant corruption, and generally horrible for the workers (see working conditions and labor strikes in China)
THEN IT IS NOT EVEN A SOCIALIST SOCIETY
You are deeply unserious.
Ask yourself this, how do you think your revolution, whatever revolution you think is necessary to install your ideology, is going to go 50 years after it’s successful and you’ve been attacked constantly on all sides and from within by the enemy?
Turns out we can answer that, you won’t make it 50 years, you won’t make it five if you stick to principles doomed to fail.
China isn’t a fascist state, they’re not an imperialist state. They’re an unapologetic dictatorship of the proletariat, and the only country still around that has executed billionaires, plural. Are they communist? No, no state can be communist given that statelessness is required. But they have an open democracy where all citizens can participate, a government that explicitly follows the will of the people, and an economy that favors the workers and has pulled more people out of poverty than all other economic systems combined. All without really violating human rights.
Lol. Lmao. If the proletariat holds all the power in China, why are their wages and working conditions worse than they are in other capitalist countries? Why do they have billionaires? Why can’t they join unions other than the one that’s run by the state?
Does that include the Uyghurs? Does that include the Tibetans?
You can’t come up with a couple of human rights that the PRC may have violated? Not a single one. Yeah righto champ 👍
Capitalism will run your defenseless little commune over and salt the earth where it stood just to spite you. Ask me how I know: what did this dogmade country do to my people’s leaders? Again, and again, and again, until the closest thing we have to earnest “civil rights leaders” anymore are sitting in prison under false government slander of being foreign-backed agents?
You want to talk about “deeply unserious” and don’t even have a meterstick to measure how deep in the water you are, or floaties to keep from sinking-- you clearly can’t swim.
If your revolution requires abandoning your principles and installing a fascistic leadership then what’s the fucking point of your revolution in the first place?
Sorry, but I didn’t see anyone mention Denmark or Norway anywhere in this thread.
Why would anyone mention racist petrocountries that are essentially Saudi Arabia but white?
Sorry, I thought we were talking about democratic countries. Didn’t realise it was “make up whatever shit makes you feel good” time.
I mentioned the Nordic states, they’re ok as far as neoliberal western states go (not very)
Oh, so you did! I missed that.
I’ll just say, having lived in Vietnam for quite some time, it certainly is a much better country than China, but describing it as “mixed” and “partially socialist” understates its issues. Corruption is rampant and open, and is the way of things in both the private and public sectors.
As just one example, the Saigon Metro project began construction not long before I stopped living there in 2012, and was scheduled to finish in 2018. Rampant corruption with that project has meant multiple times it’s just stalled with seemingly no progress made for years, and the Japanese construction company hired to do some of the work threatened to pull out over cost overruns caused by the corruption. It’s a lovely country in so many ways, and its government is so much better than those that tankies usually love to praise in terms of the degrees of gross authoritarian bs, but it’s got a long it could improve in many regards.
Sure. Except if you allow those in power to define the meaning of demos, every single country that ever existed - including Nazi Germany - was democratic. As a result, the term democratic becomes tautological in that it is always true regardless of the system involved.
So yes, your statement that China is a nation is true.
Democratic countries don’t silence people for outing criticism.
You must be sarcastic, otherwise your comment just doesn’t make any sense.
Good thing China doesn’t either.
How are you so sure? How do you see beyond western and Chinese propaganda and get to a semblance of truth? Genuine question.
I’ve lived in China for work. It’s genuinely no different than say, the Denmark in terms of “repression” except instead of arresting those that threaten capital, they arrest those that threaten the people (usually on behalf of capital). It’s not an anarchist paradise, they haven’t achieved communism, but they’re likely the furthest thing from fascism that’s still a nation. Anyone that claims to be on the left and dislikes their methods or compares them to fascists are genuinely either not on the left, or are baby lefties stuck in the 1800s in terms of reading and philosophy.
Thank you for the interesting answer. But seeing as you had to actually live there to get this impression, aren’t you being a bit strict on who’s (adult) left? Between western and Chinese propaganda, and a lack of [access to] Chinese critical sources, I think it’s incredibly hard to know what’s what without actually visiting. I mean, you can read a lot of Marx, Lenin and Mao, as well as contemporary critical theory, development studies, political economy and so on, without feeling like you’re able to get a clear view. I know I don’t.
I’m being purposefully hyperbolic to people that think investing in local communities is a genocide. Realistically yes, you can have leftist beliefs while believing anti left fascist propaganda. A whole lot of why the Weimar Republic fell was socialists believing fascists over their own comrades. But really if the only actual sources for a thing are people paid to explicitly be against communism, maybe don’t believe it. Read some Chinese history, look into the myths like mao ordering sparrows to be killed and read why that’s not a thing that happened and where those stories first started.
You will never have a clear view of anything regarding people, were too chaotic of a thing to objectively record, but you can get a much better idea if you understand the underlying motivations of those doing the recording. Chinese propaganda wants to entrench Chinese power for a China controlled by the people. American propaganda wants to entrench the ruling classes power for a China controlled by the American ruling class. Seems the biases are therefore a little uneven.
Is it possible to find information on the actual day to day state of affairs in China?
The chinese web novel reverand insanity literally got banned for criticizing china. The guy who wrote it can’t write it anymore and you can’t even pirate the novel in china. cuz its been deleted off the chinese internet.
That’s nice and all, but there are literally millions of critics that aren’t banned, whose work is publicly available, who criticize from a place of wanting to improve, not destroy.
China is ML, and if there’s anything MLs live to do, it’s criticize each other.
The vast majority of people that actually get banned from producing certain works either spread entirely false propaganda created by western intelligence agencies ( uighur “genocide” ) or want to remove the government entirely and replace it with a kleptocracy like the US has.
Could you perhaps share any authors, works, blogs or whatever in English that critique Chinese politics in the manner you’re describing?
Edit: Let me rephrase after having done some searching. If Marxists wanted non-Chinese government and non-CIA funded information about the conditions and struggles of Chinese workers, where would be a good place to find it?
Fair. I don’t follow chinese politics, I only read chinese webnovels translated into english so its the only thing I’ve heard of.