OP will be real dangerous when he learns fish also don’t ask for consent.
They don’t? I’ve been wasting my time.
Agreed, if a bear can eat a person why can’t I eat a person?!
Not sure if this is about carnivores or big, hairy gays, but hey, whatever suits you.
Ask Jeffrey Dahmer.
Something needs to die for you to survive, what and how much is up to your individual tolerance for input/output ratio.
Death and suffering is a natural state of being in nature. I can reduce it, but I still need to survive.
I hate fishing. I don’t need to fish in my current station. If I did, I would fish.
Exactly. Pretty common misconception about vegan ideology. Vegans don’t think people in developing nations have a moral imperative to change their ways because they don’t have an alternative.
I don’t need to eat meat, so I don’t.
I genuinely wasn’t aware of this. Have never heard that argument made.
So their position is basically that as soon as you have a sufficiently developed supply chain to buy refrigerated lab-grown or fake meat and get it home before it smells like a rotten protein shake, that’s what you should do? But until that happens, killing animals is ok?
Nah, you don’t necessarily need lab grown or fake meat to have a healthy delicious varied vegan diet. Legumes like chickpeas, different kinds of beans and lentils as well as soy products can provide enough protein and variety if you put some effort into your cooking. You do need B12 supplements on a vegan diet though, as well as some specific nuts and seeds to cover omega 3. So those can be a problem if there’s not a lot of variety in the stores near you and you can’t order it online for whatever reason.
I don’t understand why milk is avoided. You are not necessarily harming the animal.
I will happily drink any woman’s milk if she’s offering, but it’s actually extremely weird that y’all steal cow milk.
I think it’s extremely weird that you would happily drink any woman’s milk.
But it is MUCH less weird than drinking bovine lactate and somatic cells.
Uh, I only eat fake meat once every few weeks and that’s just for fun. I can live off of beans and rice just fine and it’s literally cheaper than meat lol
Not sure if rice and beans ticks all nutrients. Add potatoes and you’re safe.
Oh yeah definitely! Also wheat, oats, nuts, vegetables, mushrooms, etc. I’m just saying, fake meat is a treat and not really necessary at all.
So, like, your trip into town, do you take the short bus right through death valley to get there, or do you walk?
Yup that’s why I still buy clothes from sweatshops with kids working in them.
In all seriousness you’re right, but I believe people have a much lower tolerance than they think they do, but they just avoid thinking about it
In my experience I need to kill 1 large cow every 2 years to personally survive. That’s good, because that’s about my personal limit for how long I’m happy to have a cow in my freezer without charging it rent.
I need to kill an absolutely obscene number of avocados, tomatoes and other fruits and vegetable too otherwise that cow will not last me 2 years. Those are the screams that truly bother me. The daily cries of my vegetables going to slaughter.
You see, I’m not even sure if you’re:
- a fanatic vegan
- a fanatic meat eater
- just a troll
Gotta applaud you for that
I have been all of those things at various points in my life.
I really struggled with the vegan lifestyle. I can’t really eat bread or pasta because they upset my guts, and I hate potatoes. As a result, most of the free kicks in terms of energy density were off the table.
I’m a pretty big guy, and I have a super active job and active hobbies. I ended up having to eat an inhuman amount of roughage to get to the point where I stopped losing weight.
Further still I constantly felt as if I were actively fermenting some kind of wicked brew inside me. I could NOT stop farting. For almost 12 months I lived with this. All the time: In work meetings, in bed with my wife, in my motorcycle gear, in the work truck…farting. Worst of all was in the shower. I’d let a dirty vegan fart rip through sheer necessity, already knowing that the hot water would keep pounding it down and recirculating it through my nostrils but not being able to do anything about it. It was in the shower one day where I burst into tears from chewing my own farts at four o’clock in the morning that I decided I’d had enough.
I then went in completely the opposite direction and ate nothing BUT meat for 3 months. All of my digestive symptoms cleared up, my skin and hair looked amazing and I’d developed the ability to chase down wild game in the dead of night. Overall though I didn’t feel all that healthy and I could not stand the sight of another plate of meat so I threw that in the bin too and went back to being an omnivore.
At some point during this whole charade I hooked up with one of my rural neighbours who offered to sell me half a beast. Here’s where the 2 year thing comes from. Most people do not realise how much meat is in a cow. It is a fucking shitload.
HALF a cow easily fed me for an entire year when I mixed it with a wide array of vegetables, eggs, nuts and legumes - and I gave a heap of it away!
Therefore, I have had to accept that the cost of sustaining my life on this planet is 0.5 large cows per year. I do my best to return that value or greater to the world every year, and one of my acts of service is making confusing internet posts on forums that I don’t remember signing up for.
Factory farming is deplorable and extremely difficult to avoid when you shop at grocery stores. The fact that it has to exist as an industry at all whispers to me that there might just be a few too many billion omnivores on this planet to feed. My own personal problems stem from the fact that I’ve contributed to that issue: there are now 4 mouths to feed in my house! They don’t need as much meat in their diet as I do, but that still increases my household footprint above 0.5 cows per year.
If I look out of the window behind me right now, I can see old Bessy lounging by the dam in a paddock filled with lush green grass. Sometimes birds land on her but she doesn’t seem to mind, she’s pretty chill like that. She has a deep love of carrots but is unreasonably afraid of whole cabbages. I assume they make her fart.
I’ve watched Bessy enjoy life for the last 2 years, but come mid spring a loud report will echo off the hillside. I will have to deal with the mess, and the emotional upset of my children who haven’t quite mastered the art of passive detachment just yet.
One day when they are old enough, they will have to participate in the butchering if they want to eat meat. I expect I will raise a household of vegetarians and I’m ok with that. They don’t mind collecting the chicken’s eggs and we usually have at least 4 or 5 who survive their free range life long enough to reproduce. We don’t eat a lot of chickens because the maths isn’t very good.
That sounds like one hell of a journey.
Also I agree that factory farming is a poison we should eradicate. Everything about that process is as harmful as it can get to everything involved. The animals are in unnecessary pain from disease and lack of space. The ground gets poisoned by the sheer amount of manure if not from chemicals they use to reduce disease. Our antibiotics get less and less effective because we waste them “healing” ill animals that wouldn’t have gotten ill in the first place were they not cramped together like that. On top of that the meat usually tastes like shit because the unbalanced diet of the animals (usually manifests as “watery” meat).
My parents and I decided to cut down on meat consumption and instead get less but more expensive meat from a local butcher. Tastes a lot better and surprisingly we don’t even want as much meat anymore. Where previously a piece of bread had to have 2 layers of sausage on it to taste like anything now it only takes 1 layer of sausage that’s cut thinner.
Meat isn’t even the only food affected by those problems, we’ve had a similar experience with Pasta. The ones bought in stores doesn’t sate because it’s stretched with cheap ingredients, now we get it from a friend who runs an Italian delicacy store and despite the pasta costing 2x as much we run cheaper because we only need 1/4 to 1/3 as much per person.
By this logic, is it fair game to eat people who eat animals?
Only humans that eat other humans.
Why can’t i eat humans who are “OH YEAH ya’ll dawg i shot A BEAR YEAH!!” and then didn’t eat it?
Because hunting is necessary to keep the balance of species in the wilderness in check. That’s why you cannot shoot everything at any time.
For example, wild boars are a huge problem because they tend to absolutely demolish their environment and then move to a different spot, rinse and repeat. Thus, you have to keep their numbers down to actually protect the wilderness.
If someone shoots a bear out of season, that’s illegal and you ahould report him.
Huh, interesting you can still see that comment. I was sort of drunk and being flippant and I don’t actually remember what I wrote (and I can’t see it now!).
Maybe it takes a while for a comment to be deleted on all instances. Not really sure how Lemmy works under the hood as I’m kinda new. I can still see the comment.
In any case, don’t sweat about it, it wasn’t something nasty. Just, yeah as you said, flippant.
The difference is that the fish needs to eat the other fish. We don’t need ANY animal products. So every killed animal suffered and lost their life for 10min of taste for us that we didn’t need. Being vegan is so easy in 2023.
taste
what about vitamins? proteins and other nutrients
like omega 3 fatty acid majorly found in fishes
There are plenty of plant sources of Omega 3. Flax seeds, walnuts, soybeans, and canola oil all have decent amounts of omega 3 in them. As for protein, legumes generally have a bunch.
Really, the only thing a vegan needs to supplement is B12, but even that gets added to a bunch of stuff like breakfast cereals and plant milks if you consume those.
Flax seeds, walnuts, soybeans, and canola oil all have decent amounts of omega 3 in them
They also take an enormous amount of resources to cultivate and process at industrial scale.
Wait until you learn what cattle gets fed. Spoiler: it is soy
Wait until you learn that industrial 'murica isn’t the entirety of the planet.
I am not american and I dont want to be one. The feed for animals raised for their meat in the EU and a lot of other countries that have industrial animal farms is comprised out of several plants and nutrient supplements, and a big part of that feed is soy and corn, both things that are grown mostly to feed animals.
How does one milk a plant?
You can make your own plant milk usually by soaking/boiling nuts/seeds in water and then blending that together. Some people use juicers for this, and then some people run the blended liquid through a filter to remove any bits. Cashew milk is lovely if homemade!
But why call in Milk then? Shouldnt it be called Nut juice or Seed juice?
I do it to piss off dairy farmers specifically. They hate it that I get to call it plant milk and that’s really funny to me.
You can take them as supplements. It’s the same for your body. Oh and you are already doing that, because they give supplements to the animals they raise and kill, we are just eliminating the middleman.
very natural
Cyanide occurs naturally. Water can be made in a lab by mixing Hydrogen and Oxygen and applying heat.
Is Cyanide good for you when occurring naturally and water bad for you when artificially synthesized?
no. But it is also not the case that nature intended for us to consume artificially synthesized anything
Natural is such a stupid argument. Is it natural for us to use a smartphone? Sit in a car and drive around? Work 8h a day instead of being with your peer group? Breed a fast growing special kind of animal, feed it with chemical ingredients and plants that don’t grow here only to eat them? Eat processed sugar? I think you get where I am going. Stop using this bullshit argument and take some supplements, your body will thank you.
I’m not saying that supplements are bad. What I am saying is that getting those things from their original source is not bad either. And no argument will get me to see it as such. You can have your supplements, it doesn’t affect me. But I will not feel guilty of doing what nature always intended me to do: i.e. eat stuff
nature intended
Nature doesn’t intend anything, it simply is. We are, in the grand scheme of things, not separate from nature, and in this sense everything we do is natural. If you’re using “natural” to distinguish things from the results of human civilization, then eating animal products stemming from animal agriculture is just as “unnatural” as supplements, as both are products of civilization.
Are you a nudist?
Worth noting that many non-vegans are vitamin deficient and some medical authorities, including the UK’s, even recommend that everyone take vitamin D supplements. Also, please reconsider using your Internet connection, that isn’t very natural either.
as I said to the other guy, I’m not saying not natural is bad. But what op is implying is that getting the same stuff from natural sources is bad. That I just don’t agree with. It’s just the natural order of things. I have other options, yes, but I don’t consider the default natural source of things to be bad, so I don’t feel the need to switch. Animals eat animals all the time. And they don’t do it “humanely” either.
Those factory farmed animals are further away from “natural” than a smartphone
Whataboutism
This isn’t whataboutism. Whataboutism isn’t about using the words “what about”, it’s about misdirecting the conversation to a seemingly related but actually an unrelated topic in order to counter argue the point. It’s a sub-type of ad-hominem attack, a fallacy.
The person you’re responding to is directly answering why people need to eat fish (I’m not validating the claim, just explaining) with sarcastic questions starting with what about.
Dude actually said “what about….”
Again, the wording is not the issue
“Whataboutism” was invented by the british to say whenever the irish talked about oppression. It was invented to oppress. It is not a fallacy, saying “Whataboutism” is.
Elitism
Actual proteins you need supplements for if you go vegan
No you don’t. Literally every plant contains EVERY amino acid in varying amounts. You don’t need to supplement protein as a vegan.
Would you believe that I don’t want to eat just plants and pills for each meal? Would you also believe that I disagree with the industrialization of farming and the animal abuse that is so commonly paired with it.
There are humane ways to eat meat, and while they’re difficult to find, it’s a lot easier than eating what most people would consider disgusting everyday.
Yes you don’t want to just eat plants, hence you are eating animals for taste pleasure.
Why do you think it’s okay to kill someone for pleasure? What’s humane about that?
Man, you are gonna be real mad when you learn how conservation and wildlife management works
Ploughing fields for plants kills animals too
Animals other than humans aren’t people, that’s why it’s okay. You should be the first law enforcement official that prosecutes predatorial non-human animals
Literally every plant contains EVERY amino acid in varying amounts.
Guess we can all survive on grass then. Agriculture and societies were a mistake, let’s just become cattle and chill all day /s
Or you can just eat plants that you can actually digest but that wouldn’t make for a snarky comment huh?
You said “Literally every plant”. It’s right up there.
Sorry, I can’t stomach grass without some mayo or tomato sauce.
That is just a non sequitur.
You consider humans superior in intellect and ability compared to all other animals yet can’t grasp the fact that some humans have chosen to use said superior intellect and ability to avoid killing other animals?
You consider humans superior in intellect and ability compared to all other animals
Does he?
Isn’t that usually the argument that anti-vegans use? That we’re the top predator due to our intelligence and technology and therefore we have an intrinsic right to the lives of other animals?
That would be an incredibly bad argument. Because it’s not a motive, it’s just descriptive. “we’re at the top so we have the right” it’s just a claim we make for ourself without considering how we got there… and what if a smarter, more advanced alien race would come down to earth and conquer us? Would they agree that since they are top of the chain now they have “the right” to slaughter us? Obviously not. So then we would claim: “we’re smart! Look, we know math. And love… we also feel pain.”. So these are important to us.
Yeah they have definitely tried that angle in the past
Fish eating fish doesn’t lead to ecological disturbance. Humans have put multiple species on the verge of extinction.
Humans have put multiple species on the verge of extinction.
That is a slight understatement:
Hold on, the link you posted says 10 to 100 times more than the natural background extinction rate. That’s very far from "any of the previous mass extinctions in the history of the Earth.
No, it says
100 to 1,000 times higher than the background extinction rate
both in the general intro and in the “Extinction rate” section, and
10 to 100 times higher than in any of the previous mass extinctions in the history of Earth
in the “Extinction rate” section (both verbatim quotes from its first sentence).
Oh, dropped a digit. Should have just taken that nap I was gunning for. My mistake!
We’ve had some help though, i think i read that something like 1/3 of all human caused extinctions are because we keep bringing cats with us wherever we go, and letting them roam free in ecosystems that didn’t have any equivalent predator, leading to stories like this https://www.thevintagenews.com/2019/03/25/species-extinct/
i read that something like 1/3 of all human caused extinctions are because we keep bringing cats with us
Do you have a source for that? Intuitively 1/3 of all species extinctions (keep in mind this in general includes plants and other kingdoms of life, not just animals) sounds far too high imo. Maybe you have read that number in a slightly different context, like bird deaths in urban areas, or perhaps in a more specific context similar to the one in your link? Don’t get me wrong, like your link shows, (house) cats can easily have a devastating effect on the local wildlife, in particular birds and small mammals or reptiles (wikipedia has an article on the topic, although I didn’t find anything like your numbers in it). But as far as I know the major ways in which humans have caused extinctions are historically overhunting (mostly affecting large birds and mammals), habitat loss in particular since the advent of agriculture, and more recently of course the effects of the climate crisis since the industrial revolution.
I think you’re spot on there, this was the only thing i could find that was close to what i remembered reading, and it’s speaking about extinctions of bird, mammal and reptile species, where cats are behind roughly one third of the extinctions: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/extinction-countdown/worst-invasive-predators/
Sorry for late response
I’m not on either side of the argument, but would guess a good argument would be that fish need to eat other fish in order to survive as it’s their only source of food. We don’t. Provenly.
What’s wrong with fish eating plastics we dump in the waters. Are they anti plastic or something???
/S
That’s right! Oil spill is full of calories! Why don’t they just slurp it up so they can contain a lot of fish oil!
A person does not need to eat meat.
People absolutely do need to eat meat, specifically cooked meat in order to be intelligent. It’s what made cavemen smarter than other animals. Also the recent rise in average height and IQ from good nutrition is in part directly related to cheap meat from factory farming.
You are absolutely 100% wrong on this. And so wrong that it’s hilarious. Please don’t reproduce.
Nice argument, you sure showed him! Oh, wait, you didn’t - there was no substance to your reply. I suggest actually choosing a point of contention and explaining your perspective next time.
Oh, the irony.
There’s no irony, as my point of contention is your inability to discuss things like an adult despite, presumably, being one.
We needed to eat meat to get to this point. We can stop now.
Except in most cases we can’t. You may be able to, in which case, good job, but meat is much cheaper per quantity and quality of nutrients, not to mention people like me, whose only real source of dietary iron is meat.
Iron is just a mineral, where do you think the cows get it? Plenty of plants have iron. Meat is also typically a lot more expensive than rice and beans. Like you want to eat meat, that’s cool, just stop acting like it’s for your health when meat is literally a carcinogen.
Nails have iron, try eating one of those! The air is mostly Nitrogen, why do plants even need N2 in the soil?
It’s basic fucking science that nutrients take different forms which can be absorbed differently.
Again: where do you think the cows get it, lol. Not from nails.
Unless you’re a hunter there’s no way meat is cheaper, wtf are you talking about?
1kg of chicken breast meat costs me less than 5 USD and covers multiple days of meals. To get equivalent nutrients out of plants would cost me way more than that.
wtf you can? Where I am chicken breast is USD $11.64 per kg!
Compare that to beans. Where I live I can get a kg of dried pinto beans for $3.50, and with 67% as much protein per serving as chicken it would cost $5.25 to get the same amount of protein as a kg of chicken breast.
What’s the price of 1kg of dried beans where you live? That’d be a more apt comparison.
Depends a lot on brand and quality, but I’d guess the average is somewhat close to yours, at $3.00 US. Beans are a major source of protein for most people, where I live. Doesn’t help me, though - I don’t much mind the flavor, but they make me incredibly nauseous.
We still need to eat someone
As far as value goes, I don’t particularly value my own life or that of a fish. I do value the suffering of both while living though, as in I want to minimise that as much as possible.
… wait, so you’re saying is if someone painlessly murdered you in your sleep it’d be okay?
Yes please
You’re not gonna get the answer you expect asking this question here lol
I’d be placing a thank you letter in advance.
Don’t get me wrong, in general I’m not a cynical person and have most things one would wish for. I just don’t think life is worth anything in itself and being alive is just a chance of experiencing or producing needless suffering. The (incredible) good feelings don’t make up for all the bad ones that exist.
If someone where to kill me, I’d be glad it’s over. While being alive I’d feel bad for my loved ones of course, but if I’m dead I wouldn’t be able to feel that. I know that is kind of selfish, so I would try not not to kill myself as I have too much responsibilities, but if I’m just being honest, one can dream.
I’ll take two
… should have seen that coming lol
Can someone explain this template to me?
I’m afraid that’s classified information
SJ Voice: The fuck you mean classified?!? Motherfucker?
deleted by creator
Buy a man eat fish, he day, teach fish man, to a lifetime
Build a man a campfire and he’s warm for the night; set a man on fire and he’s warm for the rest of his life
How come fish can eat their own offspring but we can’t do the same to ours?
You know who’s not talking about the value of a fish’s life? Fish
I suppose it was only a matter of time before the vegans vs meat eaters oozed on over from Reddit.
You can, greg. But with that type of reasoning, you’re also just a fish. And this is not a compliment, greg
