for real. I have some childless friends. which I should say I am also childless, but I like kids and used to teach kids from ages 10-17. my friends have never worked with kids and never interact with them, but they remember school as being mean to them and not letting them achieve their maximum individual potential, so they think kids should just have all this unstructured magic playtime to explore their own genius.
I’m not saying we need to be shitty to them, but kids are crazy. they need to be constantly reminded not to cough in others’ faces, not to dig in their own assholes and then touch group food, not to act like goddam maniac when someone it’s someone else’s turn with a shared resource, and that it’s important to play in a group activity or accomplish a task with a partner and realize a shared vision.
kids can be absolutely fuckin bonkers’ ass little terrorist monsters with no impulse control, and people who think they are magic enlightened angels should be forced to work with them for like one day.
I’ve done improv and TTRPGs with large groups of 7-9 year olds. So many theater teachers love to talk about how “kids are just so creative” and “just go back to your childhood” and act all enlightened about how the system just pushes us into boxes.
Kids fucking suck at improv. Their creativity is ass in any group project. They cannot relate to others and lack empathy. “I’M A BIG YELLOW ELEPHANT AND I AM BREATHING FIRE OUT MY ASS” okiedokie Philip, but actually it’s Lisa’s turn and we’ve already made characters. Michael is actually being burnt alive right now, so maybe instead of making it burn more, you think of a way you can help your good friend? Love the input though.
Kids are put into boxes, but those boxes are titled things like “be nice” and “you are not the only person in the world”
and “if you play the ‘kick each other over the shins game’ then at least one of you will cry. Which is okay, but you gotta be prepared for it”
and “GODDAMMIT DO NOT CLIMB TREES WITH A BROKEN ELBOW!**"
and "hey when your nose is broken, maybe don’t play dodgeball?”
and “your friend didn’t punch you out of nowhere, he punched you because you kicked him and those things are related, but yes I agree getting punched isn’t nice, don’t you think getting kicked isn’t nice too?”
and “Hey remember yesterday when you came up to me, crying, because your friends wouldn’t let you play with them? Well now Sophia, your friend, is telling me you won’t let her play with all of you. Do you think Sophia feels like you felt yesterday? Oh I’m sure this game can accomodate one more person, since it’s the same game you were playing yesterday when it could suddenly accommodate you”
one of the more amusing/instructive bits i remember picking up is how kids don’t expect the adults to communicate with each other outside of what they see. like the benefit of cooperation and communication hasn’t sunk in yet, so its a magic superweapon that can be used against them. the staff had this post meal meeting where the kids would have supervised play in a big field and we took about 20-30 minutes to identify the days issues like little douchey cliques to separate or who was acting shitty earlier in the day or who was having a hard time and needs a little extra, because they all floated between our tracks however they wanted.
the troublemakers and bullies were always baffled that yes, everyone else knows what clever moves you were pulling before lunch. like the adults were some other species of humanoid with a hive mind.
Rofl this is probably caused by the hilarious reactions she gets when she does this, either the elation adults show because it’s funny af or the shock and surprise being entertaining. Discouraging it is very difficult and a lot of kids do it for the same reasons - incorrect reactions from those around them end up reinforcing the behaviour.
Teachers have to work with the students they are given, and those students can come from some rough conditions. The fact that many parents already see teachers as “glorified babysitters” (what glory?) means many parents outright expect teachers to pick up parenting duties, including teaching basic manners and decency, on top of everything else.
that’s like seven years at a minimum after they start being conditioned to BE selfish monsters, idk this seems like a more systemic issue than a biological ‘kids need to be kept in line regardless of social structure’ thing
in fact i think it’s borderline reactionary. yeah kids are gross and selfish and shitty but who taught them to be that way? they had ten or more years of experience at that point. if people treat you as subhuman, not worthy of consultation, and inherently worthless and a drain of resources for ten years and you have no other experiences you’d be fucked up too (case in point: you/everyone here probably was fucked up until they experienced things other than being treated like that)
you’re probably right to be annoyed, actually. but that isn’t the kid’s fault that they’re doing stupid shit while they’re learning. it’s the fault of us underpaying and forcing teachers and child care workers to work too many hours simultaneously, because we don’t treat them as valuable as they are. child care workers should be paid like degree holding medical doctors at minimum
In this manner, the child is prevented from developing a genuine, authentic sense of self. As he grows older, this deadening of his soul desensitizes the child to the pain of others. Eventually, the maturing adult will seek to express his repressed anger on external targets, since he has never been allowed to experience and express it in ways that would not be destructive. By such means, the cycle of violence is continued into another generation (using “violence” in the broadest sense). One of the additional consequences is that the adult, who has never developed an authentic self, can easily transfer his idealization of his parents to a new authority figure.
I’ve worked with kids from the age of 2-9 and I gotta tell you, they are not conditioned to be selfish monsters. They are selfish. They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.
in fact i think it’s borderline reactionary. yeah kids are gross and selfish and shitty but who taught them to be that way?
Honestly I think it’s the other view that’s reactionary. Kids are taught empathy. They do mean shit to each other all the tme. They’re selfish and mean. They are also so much more, but pretending like these other qualities aren’t inherent, just because they’re ugly… It’s pure ideology.
The system we exist in then hits them with contradictions. They’re taught to care for others and share their stuff and be nice and then… Welcome to the world! You just got punked, sucker! Give me all your free time!
I mean, i believe they can be/often are selfish, and it makes sense to me that that’s a fairly common “default”, but I don’t really think that needs to be beat out of them. We do a lot of horrible things to kids to basically break them and I don’t think that’s remotely necessary to teach them empathy or kindness. Let alone strict scheduling that ignores the presence of other neurotypes or mental biases.
Like kids don’t need to be yelled at or implicitly threatened with a lack of love to understand that they did something wrong, we treat kids as way dumber than they actually are. It makes sense kids will do tons of selfish and hurtful things if they don’t know any better, but it doesn’t follow that we then have to literally and/or metaphorically beat morality into their heads instead of guiding them towards their own understanding
And finally I never said that kids were “pure”. But calling them inherently selfish and evil little monsters veers way too close to old reactionary rhetoric for it to be comfortable or OK. I think a good first step would be understanding that oftentimes “selfish” behaviors come from reasonable places. The idea that they need to be tamed and browbeaten is far more reactionary than the idea that they’re pure little angels, anyways, because it leads to a lot of physical and mental harm done to kids that has been completely normalized.
These aren’t animal-humans in need of taming, these are little humans in need of guidance to lead them to understand how their own inherent sense of morality they intuit from their surroundings connects to the world
don’t really think that needs to be beat out of them
I am not saying that. In fact I am saying the opposite “They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.”
Expecting them to behave any different isn’t reasonable. Expecting children to learn how to behave without guidance or help is also unreasonable.
Like kids don’t need to be yelled at or implicitly threatened with a lack of love to understand that they did something wrong, we treat kids as way dumber than they actually are. but it doesn’t follow that we then have to literally and/or metaphorically beat morality into their heads instead of guiding them towards their own understanding
Where did I say anything about any of this? I don’t think yelling at children does anything but create trauma. Studies indicate it’s basically as bad as beating them.
But calling them inherently selfish and evil little monsters veers way too close to old reactionary rhetoric for it to be comfortable or OK
I don’t know a lot about neuroscience, but I know some parts develop later than others. And again: “They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late”
Well then it sounds like we agree more than I thought. I just think kids need to be treated more like humans with their own sense of dignity (however comically misapplied it is by them) than as similar to how we treat animals. (And as a vegan don’t even get me started on that lmao). Edit: It’s this idea that kids being selfish/mean/stupid sometimes then logically leads to needing to strictly control every aspect of their lives to prevent them from doing bad things and/or “turn them” into “better civilians” that I take issue with. Obviously some guard rails are needed but space to learn reality within those guard rails is important
Oh yeah for sure, I think we approach the discourse from opposite ends in some ways and that’s where it’s at. Like I see a lot of… etherializing? of children. “Oooh they’re just inherently pure souls, all bad in this world is only because we don’t treat them kinder” which leads to a lot of bad shit too, like unschooling. And it’s frustrating after you’ve worked with them for some years. Watching a child not play with a bucket until another child asks them to pass it to them, to then start an argument, makes you realize they’re not divine beings.
Their brains are developing, there’s a lot of tools they don’t have. I can’t count the amount of times two kids have approached me because they’re in a fight and they just don’t have the toolkit to get out of it. Learning how to say “sorry” and emotionally investing into that sorry isn’t something we have from the get go. Until your brain reaches the needed point, you need someone else to step in and guide you along the path.
Okay this is a very earnest examination of a little joke I was making but I will say that I agree, it’s just that kids at like 5 simply can’t really conceive of a “social contract” for the most part
There are some cool chimp studies though that showcase how infant humans and infant chimps, when presented with a little “play” involving a shape atop a hill that pushes another shape down whenever it climbs up, have very different priorities. When presented with physical toys that match the shapes from the play, infant humans usually chose the shape that was getting pushed down, while the infant chimps chose the “dominant” shape
It’s not super conclusive tbh but it’s cute that kids seemingly want to console the bullied actor
kindergarteners should have their “individual initiative” suppressed, kids at that age are SOCIOPATHS
for real. I have some childless friends. which I should say I am also childless, but I like kids and used to teach kids from ages 10-17. my friends have never worked with kids and never interact with them, but they remember school as being mean to them and not letting them achieve their maximum individual potential, so they think kids should just have all this unstructured magic playtime to explore their own genius.
I’m not saying we need to be shitty to them, but kids are crazy. they need to be constantly reminded not to cough in others’ faces, not to dig in their own assholes and then touch group food, not to act like goddam maniac when someone it’s someone else’s turn with a shared resource, and that it’s important to play in a group activity or accomplish a task with a partner and realize a shared vision.
kids can be absolutely fuckin bonkers’ ass little terrorist monsters with no impulse control, and people who think they are magic enlightened angels should be forced to work with them for like one day.
I’ve done improv and TTRPGs with large groups of 7-9 year olds. So many theater teachers love to talk about how “kids are just so creative” and “just go back to your childhood” and act all enlightened about how the system just pushes us into boxes.
Kids fucking suck at improv. Their creativity is ass in any group project. They cannot relate to others and lack empathy. “I’M A BIG YELLOW ELEPHANT AND I AM BREATHING FIRE OUT MY ASS” okiedokie Philip, but actually it’s Lisa’s turn and we’ve already made characters. Michael is actually being burnt alive right now, so maybe instead of making it burn more, you think of a way you can help your good friend? Love the input though.
Kids are put into boxes, but those boxes are titled things like “be nice” and “you are not the only person in the world”
and “if you play the ‘kick each other over the shins game’ then at least one of you will cry. Which is okay, but you gotta be prepared for it”
and “GODDAMMIT DO NOT CLIMB TREES WITH A BROKEN ELBOW!**"
and "hey when your nose is broken, maybe don’t play dodgeball?”
and “your friend didn’t punch you out of nowhere, he punched you because you kicked him and those things are related, but yes I agree getting punched isn’t nice, don’t you think getting kicked isn’t nice too?”
and “Hey remember yesterday when you came up to me, crying, because your friends wouldn’t let you play with them? Well now Sophia, your friend, is telling me you won’t let her play with all of you. Do you think Sophia feels like you felt yesterday? Oh I’m sure this game can accomodate one more person, since it’s the same game you were playing yesterday when it could suddenly accommodate you”
one of the more amusing/instructive bits i remember picking up is how kids don’t expect the adults to communicate with each other outside of what they see. like the benefit of cooperation and communication hasn’t sunk in yet, so its a magic superweapon that can be used against them. the staff had this post meal meeting where the kids would have supervised play in a big field and we took about 20-30 minutes to identify the days issues like little douchey cliques to separate or who was acting shitty earlier in the day or who was having a hard time and needs a little extra, because they all floated between our tracks however they wanted.
the troublemakers and bullies were always baffled that yes, everyone else knows what clever moves you were pulling before lunch. like the adults were some other species of humanoid with a hive mind.
I have a niece who keeps biting people
I am afraid of her
Rofl this is probably caused by the hilarious reactions she gets when she does this, either the elation adults show because it’s funny af or the shock and surprise being entertaining. Discouraging it is very difficult and a lot of kids do it for the same reasons - incorrect reactions from those around them end up reinforcing the behaviour.
The son of one of my long-time friends likes to run around hitting random adults, myself included, just to see their reactions.
Teachers have to work with the students they are given, and those students can come from some rough conditions. The fact that many parents already see teachers as “glorified babysitters” (what glory?) means many parents outright expect teachers to pick up parenting duties, including teaching basic manners and decency, on top of everything else.
that’s like seven years at a minimum after they start being conditioned to BE selfish monsters, idk this seems like a more systemic issue than a biological ‘kids need to be kept in line regardless of social structure’ thing
in fact i think it’s borderline reactionary. yeah kids are gross and selfish and shitty but who taught them to be that way? they had ten or more years of experience at that point. if people treat you as subhuman, not worthy of consultation, and inherently worthless and a drain of resources for ten years and you have no other experiences you’d be fucked up too (case in point: you/everyone here probably was fucked up until they experienced things other than being treated like that)
edit: read theory https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/toby-rollo-brian-davis-arthur-silber-no-against-adult-supremacy-vol-10
you’re probably right to be annoyed, actually. but that isn’t the kid’s fault that they’re doing stupid shit while they’re learning. it’s the fault of us underpaying and forcing teachers and child care workers to work too many hours simultaneously, because we don’t treat them as valuable as they are. child care workers should be paid like degree holding medical doctors at minimum
Whoops! We Made Ten Year Old Hitler!
I’ve worked with kids from the age of 2-9 and I gotta tell you, they are not conditioned to be selfish monsters. They are selfish. They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.
Honestly I think it’s the other view that’s reactionary. Kids are taught empathy. They do mean shit to each other all the tme. They’re selfish and mean. They are also so much more, but pretending like these other qualities aren’t inherent, just because they’re ugly… It’s pure ideology.
The system we exist in then hits them with contradictions. They’re taught to care for others and share their stuff and be nice and then… Welcome to the world! You just got punked, sucker! Give me all your free time!
I mean, i believe they can be/often are selfish, and it makes sense to me that that’s a fairly common “default”, but I don’t really think that needs to be beat out of them. We do a lot of horrible things to kids to basically break them and I don’t think that’s remotely necessary to teach them empathy or kindness. Let alone strict scheduling that ignores the presence of other neurotypes or mental biases.
Like kids don’t need to be yelled at or implicitly threatened with a lack of love to understand that they did something wrong, we treat kids as way dumber than they actually are. It makes sense kids will do tons of selfish and hurtful things if they don’t know any better, but it doesn’t follow that we then have to literally and/or metaphorically beat morality into their heads instead of guiding them towards their own understanding
And finally I never said that kids were “pure”. But calling them inherently selfish and evil little monsters veers way too close to old reactionary rhetoric for it to be comfortable or OK. I think a good first step would be understanding that oftentimes “selfish” behaviors come from reasonable places. The idea that they need to be tamed and browbeaten is far more reactionary than the idea that they’re pure little angels, anyways, because it leads to a lot of physical and mental harm done to kids that has been completely normalized.
These aren’t animal-humans in need of taming, these are little humans in need of guidance to lead them to understand how their own inherent sense of morality they intuit from their surroundings connects to the world
I am not saying that. In fact I am saying the opposite “They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.”
Expecting them to behave any different isn’t reasonable. Expecting children to learn how to behave without guidance or help is also unreasonable.
Where did I say anything about any of this? I don’t think yelling at children does anything but create trauma. Studies indicate it’s basically as bad as beating them.
I don’t know a lot about neuroscience, but I know some parts develop later than others. And again: “They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late”
Well then it sounds like we agree more than I thought. I just think kids need to be treated more like humans with their own sense of dignity (however comically misapplied it is by them) than as similar to how we treat animals. (And as a vegan don’t even get me started on that lmao). Edit: It’s this idea that kids being selfish/mean/stupid sometimes then logically leads to needing to strictly control every aspect of their lives to prevent them from doing bad things and/or “turn them” into “better civilians” that I take issue with. Obviously some guard rails are needed but space to learn reality within those guard rails is important
Oh yeah for sure, I think we approach the discourse from opposite ends in some ways and that’s where it’s at. Like I see a lot of… etherializing? of children. “Oooh they’re just inherently pure souls, all bad in this world is only because we don’t treat them kinder” which leads to a lot of bad shit too, like unschooling. And it’s frustrating after you’ve worked with them for some years. Watching a child not play with a bucket until another child asks them to pass it to them, to then start an argument, makes you realize they’re not divine beings.
Their brains are developing, there’s a lot of tools they don’t have. I can’t count the amount of times two kids have approached me because they’re in a fight and they just don’t have the toolkit to get out of it. Learning how to say “sorry” and emotionally investing into that sorry isn’t something we have from the get go. Until your brain reaches the needed point, you need someone else to step in and guide you along the path.
Edit: see this comment for more examples
It kind of bothers me that a lot of us need them to be pure ethereal beings in the first place to believe they deserve to be treated well!
Okay this is a very earnest examination of a little joke I was making but I will say that I agree, it’s just that kids at like 5 simply can’t really conceive of a “social contract” for the most part
There are some cool chimp studies though that showcase how infant humans and infant chimps, when presented with a little “play” involving a shape atop a hill that pushes another shape down whenever it climbs up, have very different priorities. When presented with physical toys that match the shapes from the play, infant humans usually chose the shape that was getting pushed down, while the infant chimps chose the “dominant” shape
It’s not super conclusive tbh but it’s cute that kids seemingly want to console the bullied actor
You’ve touched on some unexamined thoughts that rattle around in my brain. I’d like to formally say “oh yeah, huh…”