that’s like seven years at a minimum after they start being conditioned to BE selfish monsters, idk this seems like a more systemic issue than a biological ‘kids need to be kept in line regardless of social structure’ thing
in fact i think it’s borderline reactionary. yeah kids are gross and selfish and shitty but who taught them to be that way? they had ten or more years of experience at that point. if people treat you as subhuman, not worthy of consultation, and inherently worthless and a drain of resources for ten years and you have no other experiences you’d be fucked up too (case in point: you/everyone here probably was fucked up until they experienced things other than being treated like that)
you’re probably right to be annoyed, actually. but that isn’t the kid’s fault that they’re doing stupid shit while they’re learning. it’s the fault of us underpaying and forcing teachers and child care workers to work too many hours simultaneously, because we don’t treat them as valuable as they are. child care workers should be paid like degree holding medical doctors at minimum
In this manner, the child is prevented from developing a genuine, authentic sense of self. As he grows older, this deadening of his soul desensitizes the child to the pain of others. Eventually, the maturing adult will seek to express his repressed anger on external targets, since he has never been allowed to experience and express it in ways that would not be destructive. By such means, the cycle of violence is continued into another generation (using “violence” in the broadest sense). One of the additional consequences is that the adult, who has never developed an authentic self, can easily transfer his idealization of his parents to a new authority figure.
I’ve worked with kids from the age of 2-9 and I gotta tell you, they are not conditioned to be selfish monsters. They are selfish. They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.
in fact i think it’s borderline reactionary. yeah kids are gross and selfish and shitty but who taught them to be that way?
Honestly I think it’s the other view that’s reactionary. Kids are taught empathy. They do mean shit to each other all the tme. They’re selfish and mean. They are also so much more, but pretending like these other qualities aren’t inherent, just because they’re ugly… It’s pure ideology.
The system we exist in then hits them with contradictions. They’re taught to care for others and share their stuff and be nice and then… Welcome to the world! You just got punked, sucker! Give me all your free time!
I mean, i believe they can be/often are selfish, and it makes sense to me that that’s a fairly common “default”, but I don’t really think that needs to be beat out of them. We do a lot of horrible things to kids to basically break them and I don’t think that’s remotely necessary to teach them empathy or kindness. Let alone strict scheduling that ignores the presence of other neurotypes or mental biases.
Like kids don’t need to be yelled at or implicitly threatened with a lack of love to understand that they did something wrong, we treat kids as way dumber than they actually are. It makes sense kids will do tons of selfish and hurtful things if they don’t know any better, but it doesn’t follow that we then have to literally and/or metaphorically beat morality into their heads instead of guiding them towards their own understanding
And finally I never said that kids were “pure”. But calling them inherently selfish and evil little monsters veers way too close to old reactionary rhetoric for it to be comfortable or OK. I think a good first step would be understanding that oftentimes “selfish” behaviors come from reasonable places. The idea that they need to be tamed and browbeaten is far more reactionary than the idea that they’re pure little angels, anyways, because it leads to a lot of physical and mental harm done to kids that has been completely normalized.
These aren’t animal-humans in need of taming, these are little humans in need of guidance to lead them to understand how their own inherent sense of morality they intuit from their surroundings connects to the world
don’t really think that needs to be beat out of them
I am not saying that. In fact I am saying the opposite “They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.”
Expecting them to behave any different isn’t reasonable. Expecting children to learn how to behave without guidance or help is also unreasonable.
Like kids don’t need to be yelled at or implicitly threatened with a lack of love to understand that they did something wrong, we treat kids as way dumber than they actually are. but it doesn’t follow that we then have to literally and/or metaphorically beat morality into their heads instead of guiding them towards their own understanding
Where did I say anything about any of this? I don’t think yelling at children does anything but create trauma. Studies indicate it’s basically as bad as beating them.
But calling them inherently selfish and evil little monsters veers way too close to old reactionary rhetoric for it to be comfortable or OK
I don’t know a lot about neuroscience, but I know some parts develop later than others. And again: “They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late”
Well then it sounds like we agree more than I thought. I just think kids need to be treated more like humans with their own sense of dignity (however comically misapplied it is by them) than as similar to how we treat animals. (And as a vegan don’t even get me started on that lmao). Edit: It’s this idea that kids being selfish/mean/stupid sometimes then logically leads to needing to strictly control every aspect of their lives to prevent them from doing bad things and/or “turn them” into “better civilians” that I take issue with. Obviously some guard rails are needed but space to learn reality within those guard rails is important
Oh yeah for sure, I think we approach the discourse from opposite ends in some ways and that’s where it’s at. Like I see a lot of… etherializing? of children. “Oooh they’re just inherently pure souls, all bad in this world is only because we don’t treat them kinder” which leads to a lot of bad shit too, like unschooling. And it’s frustrating after you’ve worked with them for some years. Watching a child not play with a bucket until another child asks them to pass it to them, to then start an argument, makes you realize they’re not divine beings.
Their brains are developing, there’s a lot of tools they don’t have. I can’t count the amount of times two kids have approached me because they’re in a fight and they just don’t have the toolkit to get out of it. Learning how to say “sorry” and emotionally investing into that sorry isn’t something we have from the get go. Until your brain reaches the needed point, you need someone else to step in and guide you along the path.
Okay this is a very earnest examination of a little joke I was making but I will say that I agree, it’s just that kids at like 5 simply can’t really conceive of a “social contract” for the most part
There are some cool chimp studies though that showcase how infant humans and infant chimps, when presented with a little “play” involving a shape atop a hill that pushes another shape down whenever it climbs up, have very different priorities. When presented with physical toys that match the shapes from the play, infant humans usually chose the shape that was getting pushed down, while the infant chimps chose the “dominant” shape
It’s not super conclusive tbh but it’s cute that kids seemingly want to console the bullied actor
that’s like seven years at a minimum after they start being conditioned to BE selfish monsters, idk this seems like a more systemic issue than a biological ‘kids need to be kept in line regardless of social structure’ thing
in fact i think it’s borderline reactionary. yeah kids are gross and selfish and shitty but who taught them to be that way? they had ten or more years of experience at that point. if people treat you as subhuman, not worthy of consultation, and inherently worthless and a drain of resources for ten years and you have no other experiences you’d be fucked up too (case in point: you/everyone here probably was fucked up until they experienced things other than being treated like that)
edit: read theory https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/toby-rollo-brian-davis-arthur-silber-no-against-adult-supremacy-vol-10
you’re probably right to be annoyed, actually. but that isn’t the kid’s fault that they’re doing stupid shit while they’re learning. it’s the fault of us underpaying and forcing teachers and child care workers to work too many hours simultaneously, because we don’t treat them as valuable as they are. child care workers should be paid like degree holding medical doctors at minimum
Whoops! We Made Ten Year Old Hitler!
I’ve worked with kids from the age of 2-9 and I gotta tell you, they are not conditioned to be selfish monsters. They are selfish. They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.
Honestly I think it’s the other view that’s reactionary. Kids are taught empathy. They do mean shit to each other all the tme. They’re selfish and mean. They are also so much more, but pretending like these other qualities aren’t inherent, just because they’re ugly… It’s pure ideology.
The system we exist in then hits them with contradictions. They’re taught to care for others and share their stuff and be nice and then… Welcome to the world! You just got punked, sucker! Give me all your free time!
I mean, i believe they can be/often are selfish, and it makes sense to me that that’s a fairly common “default”, but I don’t really think that needs to be beat out of them. We do a lot of horrible things to kids to basically break them and I don’t think that’s remotely necessary to teach them empathy or kindness. Let alone strict scheduling that ignores the presence of other neurotypes or mental biases.
Like kids don’t need to be yelled at or implicitly threatened with a lack of love to understand that they did something wrong, we treat kids as way dumber than they actually are. It makes sense kids will do tons of selfish and hurtful things if they don’t know any better, but it doesn’t follow that we then have to literally and/or metaphorically beat morality into their heads instead of guiding them towards their own understanding
And finally I never said that kids were “pure”. But calling them inherently selfish and evil little monsters veers way too close to old reactionary rhetoric for it to be comfortable or OK. I think a good first step would be understanding that oftentimes “selfish” behaviors come from reasonable places. The idea that they need to be tamed and browbeaten is far more reactionary than the idea that they’re pure little angels, anyways, because it leads to a lot of physical and mental harm done to kids that has been completely normalized.
These aren’t animal-humans in need of taming, these are little humans in need of guidance to lead them to understand how their own inherent sense of morality they intuit from their surroundings connects to the world
I am not saying that. In fact I am saying the opposite “They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.”
Expecting them to behave any different isn’t reasonable. Expecting children to learn how to behave without guidance or help is also unreasonable.
Where did I say anything about any of this? I don’t think yelling at children does anything but create trauma. Studies indicate it’s basically as bad as beating them.
I don’t know a lot about neuroscience, but I know some parts develop later than others. And again: “They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late”
Well then it sounds like we agree more than I thought. I just think kids need to be treated more like humans with their own sense of dignity (however comically misapplied it is by them) than as similar to how we treat animals. (And as a vegan don’t even get me started on that lmao). Edit: It’s this idea that kids being selfish/mean/stupid sometimes then logically leads to needing to strictly control every aspect of their lives to prevent them from doing bad things and/or “turn them” into “better civilians” that I take issue with. Obviously some guard rails are needed but space to learn reality within those guard rails is important
Oh yeah for sure, I think we approach the discourse from opposite ends in some ways and that’s where it’s at. Like I see a lot of… etherializing? of children. “Oooh they’re just inherently pure souls, all bad in this world is only because we don’t treat them kinder” which leads to a lot of bad shit too, like unschooling. And it’s frustrating after you’ve worked with them for some years. Watching a child not play with a bucket until another child asks them to pass it to them, to then start an argument, makes you realize they’re not divine beings.
Their brains are developing, there’s a lot of tools they don’t have. I can’t count the amount of times two kids have approached me because they’re in a fight and they just don’t have the toolkit to get out of it. Learning how to say “sorry” and emotionally investing into that sorry isn’t something we have from the get go. Until your brain reaches the needed point, you need someone else to step in and guide you along the path.
Edit: see this comment for more examples
It kind of bothers me that a lot of us need them to be pure ethereal beings in the first place to believe they deserve to be treated well!
:yea: me too
Okay this is a very earnest examination of a little joke I was making but I will say that I agree, it’s just that kids at like 5 simply can’t really conceive of a “social contract” for the most part
There are some cool chimp studies though that showcase how infant humans and infant chimps, when presented with a little “play” involving a shape atop a hill that pushes another shape down whenever it climbs up, have very different priorities. When presented with physical toys that match the shapes from the play, infant humans usually chose the shape that was getting pushed down, while the infant chimps chose the “dominant” shape
It’s not super conclusive tbh but it’s cute that kids seemingly want to console the bullied actor