The thing is on both sides it’s for the male gaze. Women are are objectified for men (look how sexy she is, don’t you want this?), and men are objectified for men (look how strong and handsome he is, don’t you want to be like him?)
I think the “steroid guy is how all men should look” isnt coming from women but rather “alpha dudebro culture” that has no interest in asking women what they want (that would be gay/beta etc)
Reread my comment and you’ll find I never said or claimed that. But that’s not the primary reason it’s done. Women aren’t the primary demographic for comic books and comic book movies. Superhero men are drawn the way they are for the male gaze, and women are drawn the way they are for the male gaze. If some women like it too, that’s just a bonus for the publishers. This translates onto the screen.
As a straight male I feel nothing looking at buff men and I can assure you it’s the same for many other men. We truly don’t feel much looking at them and they’re not presented this way for our gaze.
About the only guys I know that do care are caring because they’re insecure about their own bodies. Especially friends who exercise regularly to try to achieve these physiques.
That’s so crazy to me, I’ve always heard women saying that level of muscle doesn’t do much for them, with the assumption being super buff dudes must just be a male power fantasy…
But you’re saying that it’s not even a male power fantasy? You feel nothing? You wouldn’t feel like Thor was puny if he was only average gym bro levels of muscled? I know you don’t speak for all straight dudes, lol. It just suddenly seems like these poor dudes are putting themselves through hell for absolutely no reason. That’s both encouraging (Heyy, maybe we can stop that nonsense!) And depressing (that it’s been happening for no reason at all)
That proves the point then doesn’t it? The way society assigns value to women based on their perceived attractiveness to men is attached to misogynistic propaganda. We tell girls how to look when they’re six months old. They already know they have to be deathly thin by the time they’re 10. Many girls developing eating disorders in fucking middle school. They almost only see women who exactly fit societies definition of attractiveness in every single movie. They get bullied, they see other girls being bullied for their weight. The size of their breasts becomes a subject of mockery when they’re not even in puberty yet. Their family members, their parents, will impose standards upon them. Their friends will, their teachers, every single adult they ever encounter.
So you might see this and think nothing, just a bunch of buff guys. And that perfectly demonstrates it. This has no affect on you, you do not suffer oppressive conformation pressure due to every single aspect of your body and appearance. You don’t see yourself as having no value because you don’t look exactly like them, you don’t have every single person in your life every single piece of media in your life telling you that you have no value because you don’t look like them. We do, that’s something we deal with every single day. That’s something that literally kills us, that contributes immeasurable suffering into the world. It’s not even close to the same.
No one was even TALKING about that, why do you have to come here with your “oh women have it worse”. WE KNOW. THAT DOESN’T MEAN IT’S GREAT FOR US EITHER.
I don’t even want to get into what your comment says wrong because we shouldn’t even be having that discussion. You’re just belittling men’s issues. Can you just have one comment that doesn’t mention how bad women have it? Like, just one comment where you exclusively discuss male problems.
I’m not the one who mentioned women, that was already happening in this thread. I responded to all the anti feminist takes here. That’s all I did. We’re on a post talking about body image issues, which in another comment I already said that men would benefit greatly from body positivity and better representation for diverse body types in media. Body image issues are definitely a thing for men too. I never said they weren’t. What I said is it is not comparable to the way body image is weaponized by misogyny against women. Because again, I was responding to people who were saying it was.
Whether it works on you or not. Whether it succeeds or not… The intent of the portrayal is a masculine power fantasy.
Hell, it might be for the writer. Tony Stark (and 80% of all Marvel-men’s) ‘I’m an asshole but you love me for it’ vibe is the same thing really.
My dude, I’ll put it plainly, I think you might be gay. There’s no way you look at a ripped, naked Chris Hemsworth butt and think “that scene was for men”
Its a male power fantasy. It isn’t “I want to sex up Chris Hemsworth” its “I want to be an absolute flesh monster like this guy” its about the idea of male success and dominating others. Written by dudebros for dudebros.
Women are are objectified for men (look how sexy she is, don’t you want this?), and men are objectified for men (look how strong and handsome he is, don’t you want to be like him?)
If you can’t see it, I don’t think I can help you.
I’m not really sure how you move goalposts in your initial claim. I don’t think moving goalposts means what you think it means. Maybe you mean double standard, which I would still disagree with but it would at least make more sense here.
My partner and I tried to come up with an example of a character built for the female gaze. The best we could do was Idris Elba as a Jinn from 3000 Years of Longing.
In cinematic representations of women, the male gaze denies the woman’s human agency and human identity to transform her from person to object — someone to be considered only for her beauty, physique, and sex appeal, as defined in the male sexual fantasy of narrative cinema.
So while women might like looking at the men in Magic Mike or watching nameless romcoms, the women in the stories have no agency. The men might serve their every need and save them from whatever situation, but the men are still doing all the things, and they follow the men-in-charge storyline.
Been reading this thread and honestly, the only thing you’ve convinced me of is that the concept of the male gaze has become so diluted through expansion that’s it’s effectively meaningless.
Bella Swan? Oh, she’s written to appeal to the female fantasy of being protected by a big strong man who is so emotionally devoted to her that being separated from her drives him to suicide. I.e. the Female Gaze.
The part you’re missing is agency. It’s not just about what appeals to men or women. Whether or not Bella is in a situation that a woman might envy, she does nothing in the story. She is an object to be fawned over and protected.
I mean isn’t it a little odd that apparently men and women both like movies where men do everything? Maybe that’s a trend worth investigating?
If you want a Female Gaze movie, find a movie where the man is reduced to an object that does nothing while women run the show. It’s shockingly hard to do.
That’s simply not true. You’re mistaking the character’s physical vulnerability (in the context of supernatural beings, no less) for helplessness and/or passivity, of which Bella is neither.
If you want a Female Gaze movie, find a movie where the man is reduced to an object that does nothing while women run the show.
No, that’s inverting the male gaze and calling it the female gaze. The criteria for the female gaze would be based on stereotypes that appeal to women sexually. A strong man leaping to the heroine’s rescue could be exactly what women want to see in their movie’s men, particularly if those men are also cast as submissive to the heroine in other ways, like losing arguments with her, being the butt of her jokes, or changing in the stereotypical way women try to change men (e.g. reforming the “bad boy” into a faithful, stand-up man so the woman can have the best of both worlds, so to speak). Plenty of romantic comedies marketed to women fit those criteria.
What does Bella do in the story? Dad buys her a truck, dude saves her from a car accident, stalks her, plays baseball in front of her, then the family chips in to save her from The Tracker or whatever. She just kind of hangs out. She doesn’t even decide to move to Forks in the first place.
Also, please look up the term “Male Gaze”. It’s a real term. I didn’t invent it. And it doesn’t simply mean “stuff that men like to see.”
In the context of cinema, it’s mostly men who write the films we watch, mostly men who make those films, and it is men who are usually the target audience.
Therefore, men are usually given the lead in the stories themselves while female characters are assigned functions that are limited to serving the goals of those male protagonists
“Reforming a bad boy” is literally a woman serving a man. Especially if the “goal” of the man is to get with the woman.
Show me a romcom where the man serves the desires of the woman and doesn’t get to fuck her at the end.
That’s still the male gaze. Most women I know don’t care about bicep size. It’s one of those things men do to look more like other men they think have good bodies.
The scene with Tony Stark chopping wood is much closer to the female gaze, according to my friends at least. For them it’s all about the forearms and in general the type of body you get from real physical labor, not the kind of body you get from the gym
Disagree. They generally fall into the male gaze as well. Not necessarily physically, but the roles they play are generally cool collected dude that calls all the shots and/or saves the girl. Something men want to emulate.
Also they’re almost always rewarded with the love of the woman.
Ripped dudes who show off to countless nameless faceless women? Despite performing “for” women, they are calling all the shots and definitely in charge.
I haven’t seen it, but based on what I’m reading, yes actually.
You know how everyone didn’t realize Starship Troopers is a satire?
Same director.
In hindsight, it would be extremely difficult not to read Showgirls as satirical, in the context of Verhoeven’s career. At that stage, after all, the Dutch filmmaker was in the pomp of his Hollywood phase, which saw him use popcorn genres as a way to critique his adopted homeland’s socio-political landscape: there was Robocop’s shots at law enforcement and corporate supremacy and Starship Troopers’ caustic indictment of the country’s more fascistic impulses and jingoistic foreign policy in the guise of a ‘big bug’ movie.
Showgirls may come with more rhinestones attached, but it’s even more searing in its depiction of a dehumanised world, whose ultra-consumer capitalist worldview is encapsulated in one typically bald exchange between Nomi and Cristal: “You are a whore, darlin”, “No, I’m not!” “We all are, we take the cash, we cash the check, we show ‘em what they wanna see.” The fact Showgirls wasn’t immediately understood as satire speaks to an implicit, and possibly patriarchal, bias in film criticism about what tenors of filmmaking are accorded intellectual respect – something Nayman seems to get at in You Don’t Nomi when he notes how “Verhoeven was widely understood in America as a satirist and as a social commentator as long as the primary texture of his films was violence … [whereas] he makes a movie that has a texture that is more overtly sexual [and] all of a sudden people didn’t think he was a satirist or a commentator … they just sort of said ‘what a pervert’.”
Edit: realizing now that you might have used it as an example because you’re in on the joke.
Surprised you could only think of Idris! Would say he’s definitely female gaze in most of his roles. Off the top of my head, and as a woman who talks about celeb ‘crushes’ with other women, the tops are:
Stanley Tucci in literally anything.
Tom Hiddleston (Loki had way more female attention than Thor)
Jack Black as Bowser
David Harbour as Jim Hopper
Sean Austin (in general, but also as Bob in ST)
Paul Rudd (again, in almost anything)
Pedro Pascal (particularly as Joel)
Hugh Jackman in musicals (as opposed to being Wolverine)
All examples of men who, for the most part, are not obvious sex symbols in their roles, all of whom women go absolutely wild for.
I think you’re ignoring the non-physical aspects of Male Gaze.
The problem with your examples, is that in most of the stories/roles you listed, women don’t do anything. Unless the story does something to elevate women beyond passive objects, it’s still written for the Male Gaze where men make are in charge and make all the decisions.
Hmm, I see your point now I’ve looked up the actual theory of female gaze.
It seems in the modern social media space, female gaze has been used to mean something more like “the male characters who women find attractive are the ones that show more emotional, loving, nurturing and supportive traits”. So if used this way, it’s not a direct contrast to male gaze. Maybe we need to call that observation something different!
I wonder if Bob (Sean Austin) does fall into the proper definition though? His character does exist for the most part to lift every other character around him, especially Joyce Byers.
TLOU is good and potentially fits the criteria, I’m not sure actually, as the main female character is a child so inherently vulnerable and kinda reliant on this achey old man to ferry her through the apocalypse. Would still recommend, I cried like a baby through certain parts.
The Sean Astin character I’m referencing is in Stranger Things S2. I think has at least one potential example of female gaze (as a compliment to Winona Ryder’s character).
Stranger Things probably isn’t great for other metrics though, like the Bechdel test.
Oh my bad. Mixed up the shows! Yeah I’ve seen S2! Completely forgot he was in it. Sean Astin is a good pick. Also killing him off so soon and so unceremoniously is an absolute crime.
Just a tangent: In my film class back in school, they defined the male gaze by what the camera focuses on, i.e. does it mimic what a straight, male viewer would focus on. Whether a character is “designed for the male gaze” is kind of squishy, and debatable, but the mechanical, film-studies definition of male gaze is indisputable. Once you see it, you can’t unsee how many times a female character is introduced by panning up her body.
The thing is on both sides it’s for the male gaze. Women are are objectified for men (look how sexy she is, don’t you want this?), and men are objectified for men (look how strong and handsome he is, don’t you want to be like him?)
If you think women aren’t enjoying the male eye candy, I have some news for you
I think the “steroid guy is how all men should look” isnt coming from women but rather “alpha dudebro culture” that has no interest in asking women what they want (that would be gay/beta etc)
Reread my comment and you’ll find I never said or claimed that. But that’s not the primary reason it’s done. Women aren’t the primary demographic for comic books and comic book movies. Superhero men are drawn the way they are for the male gaze, and women are drawn the way they are for the male gaze. If some women like it too, that’s just a bonus for the publishers. This translates onto the screen.
As a straight male I feel nothing looking at buff men and I can assure you it’s the same for many other men. We truly don’t feel much looking at them and they’re not presented this way for our gaze.
About the only guys I know that do care are caring because they’re insecure about their own bodies. Especially friends who exercise regularly to try to achieve these physiques.
That’s so crazy to me, I’ve always heard women saying that level of muscle doesn’t do much for them, with the assumption being super buff dudes must just be a male power fantasy…
But you’re saying that it’s not even a male power fantasy? You feel nothing? You wouldn’t feel like Thor was puny if he was only average gym bro levels of muscled? I know you don’t speak for all straight dudes, lol. It just suddenly seems like these poor dudes are putting themselves through hell for absolutely no reason. That’s both encouraging (Heyy, maybe we can stop that nonsense!) And depressing (that it’s been happening for no reason at all)
That proves the point then doesn’t it? The way society assigns value to women based on their perceived attractiveness to men is attached to misogynistic propaganda. We tell girls how to look when they’re six months old. They already know they have to be deathly thin by the time they’re 10. Many girls developing eating disorders in fucking middle school. They almost only see women who exactly fit societies definition of attractiveness in every single movie. They get bullied, they see other girls being bullied for their weight. The size of their breasts becomes a subject of mockery when they’re not even in puberty yet. Their family members, their parents, will impose standards upon them. Their friends will, their teachers, every single adult they ever encounter.
So you might see this and think nothing, just a bunch of buff guys. And that perfectly demonstrates it. This has no affect on you, you do not suffer oppressive conformation pressure due to every single aspect of your body and appearance. You don’t see yourself as having no value because you don’t look exactly like them, you don’t have every single person in your life every single piece of media in your life telling you that you have no value because you don’t look like them. We do, that’s something we deal with every single day. That’s something that literally kills us, that contributes immeasurable suffering into the world. It’s not even close to the same.
No one was even TALKING about that, why do you have to come here with your “oh women have it worse”. WE KNOW. THAT DOESN’T MEAN IT’S GREAT FOR US EITHER.
Jesus.
The commenter I am responding to made other comments, you should read them.
Also saying women have it worse doesn’t even come close to it, you should re-read my comment.
I don’t even want to get into what your comment says wrong because we shouldn’t even be having that discussion. You’re just belittling men’s issues. Can you just have one comment that doesn’t mention how bad women have it? Like, just one comment where you exclusively discuss male problems.
I’m not the one who mentioned women, that was already happening in this thread. I responded to all the anti feminist takes here. That’s all I did. We’re on a post talking about body image issues, which in another comment I already said that men would benefit greatly from body positivity and better representation for diverse body types in media. Body image issues are definitely a thing for men too. I never said they weren’t. What I said is it is not comparable to the way body image is weaponized by misogyny against women. Because again, I was responding to people who were saying it was.
That’s great for you. I’m glad that you’re secure in your self image. The people that these are targeted towards aren’t.
Whether it works on you or not. Whether it succeeds or not… The intent of the portrayal is a masculine power fantasy. Hell, it might be for the writer. Tony Stark (and 80% of all Marvel-men’s) ‘I’m an asshole but you love me for it’ vibe is the same thing really.
My dude, I’ll put it plainly, I think you might be gay. There’s no way you look at a ripped, naked Chris Hemsworth butt and think “that scene was for men”
Its a male power fantasy. It isn’t “I want to sex up Chris Hemsworth” its “I want to be an absolute flesh monster like this guy” its about the idea of male success and dominating others. Written by dudebros for dudebros.
That’ll be news to my wife! (Also, you assumed I’m a man. I am, but you still assumed.)
Actually, the statement works whether you’re male or female
Think about it
Haha that’s fair
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This is just blatant sexism.
Are you saying my comment is sexism or the practice is sexism?
Why not both? Objectifying people can be sexist, and your comment was clearly sexist. They’re not mutually exclusive.
How is my comment sexist?
…no? Have you actually hung out with real people?
Man, you shifted those goalposts fast! You’ve been doing this a long time, haven’t you?
What goalposts did I shift and where did I shift them to?
If you can’t see it, I don’t think I can help you.
I’m not really sure how you move goalposts in your initial claim. I don’t think moving goalposts means what you think it means. Maybe you mean double standard, which I would still disagree with but it would at least make more sense here.
ITT, people who think attractive man = female gaze.
My partner and I tried to come up with an example of a character built for the female gaze. The best we could do was Idris Elba as a Jinn from 3000 Years of Longing.
Edit: I think you all are missing the point.
From Wikipedia
So while women might like looking at the men in Magic Mike or watching nameless romcoms, the women in the stories have no agency. The men might serve their every need and save them from whatever situation, but the men are still doing all the things, and they follow the men-in-charge storyline.
Legolas?
Any male character from Twilight? Any male romcom character?
Twilight? The movie where the dude makes all the decisions and routinely threatens the life of the girl who has negligible agency?
Sure, women like it, but it’s written with the archetype of the man being macho and in charge. I.e. the Male Gaze.
Been reading this thread and honestly, the only thing you’ve convinced me of is that the concept of the male gaze has become so diluted through expansion that’s it’s effectively meaningless.
Bella Swan? Oh, she’s written to appeal to the female fantasy of being protected by a big strong man who is so emotionally devoted to her that being separated from her drives him to suicide. I.e. the Female Gaze.
See what I did there?
The part you’re missing is agency. It’s not just about what appeals to men or women. Whether or not Bella is in a situation that a woman might envy, she does nothing in the story. She is an object to be fawned over and protected.
I mean isn’t it a little odd that apparently men and women both like movies where men do everything? Maybe that’s a trend worth investigating?
If you want a Female Gaze movie, find a movie where the man is reduced to an object that does nothing while women run the show. It’s shockingly hard to do.
That’s simply not true. You’re mistaking the character’s physical vulnerability (in the context of supernatural beings, no less) for helplessness and/or passivity, of which Bella is neither.
No, that’s inverting the male gaze and calling it the female gaze. The criteria for the female gaze would be based on stereotypes that appeal to women sexually. A strong man leaping to the heroine’s rescue could be exactly what women want to see in their movie’s men, particularly if those men are also cast as submissive to the heroine in other ways, like losing arguments with her, being the butt of her jokes, or changing in the stereotypical way women try to change men (e.g. reforming the “bad boy” into a faithful, stand-up man so the woman can have the best of both worlds, so to speak). Plenty of romantic comedies marketed to women fit those criteria.
What does Bella do in the story? Dad buys her a truck, dude saves her from a car accident, stalks her, plays baseball in front of her, then the family chips in to save her from The Tracker or whatever. She just kind of hangs out. She doesn’t even decide to move to Forks in the first place.
Also, please look up the term “Male Gaze”. It’s a real term. I didn’t invent it. And it doesn’t simply mean “stuff that men like to see.”
https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/what-is-the-male-gaze-definition/
“Reforming a bad boy” is literally a woman serving a man. Especially if the “goal” of the man is to get with the woman.
Show me a romcom where the man serves the desires of the woman and doesn’t get to fuck her at the end.
Bruh
That’s still the male gaze. Most women I know don’t care about bicep size. It’s one of those things men do to look more like other men they think have good bodies.
The scene with Tony Stark chopping wood is much closer to the female gaze, according to my friends at least. For them it’s all about the forearms and in general the type of body you get from real physical labor, not the kind of body you get from the gym
Bruh
As someone mentioned, literally almost any male romcom lead.
Disagree. They generally fall into the male gaze as well. Not necessarily physically, but the roles they play are generally cool collected dude that calls all the shots and/or saves the girl. Something men want to emulate.
Also they’re almost always rewarded with the love of the woman.
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Ripped dudes who show off to countless nameless faceless women? Despite performing “for” women, they are calling all the shots and definitely in charge.
so is showgirls secretly a feminist film?
I haven’t seen it, but based on what I’m reading, yes actually.
You know how everyone didn’t realize Starship Troopers is a satire?
Same director.
Edit: realizing now that you might have used it as an example because you’re in on the joke.
Surprised you could only think of Idris! Would say he’s definitely female gaze in most of his roles. Off the top of my head, and as a woman who talks about celeb ‘crushes’ with other women, the tops are:
All examples of men who, for the most part, are not obvious sex symbols in their roles, all of whom women go absolutely wild for.
I think you’re ignoring the non-physical aspects of Male Gaze.
The problem with your examples, is that in most of the stories/roles you listed, women don’t do anything. Unless the story does something to elevate women beyond passive objects, it’s still written for the Male Gaze where men make are in charge and make all the decisions.
Hmm, I see your point now I’ve looked up the actual theory of female gaze.
It seems in the modern social media space, female gaze has been used to mean something more like “the male characters who women find attractive are the ones that show more emotional, loving, nurturing and supportive traits”. So if used this way, it’s not a direct contrast to male gaze. Maybe we need to call that observation something different!
I wonder if Bob (Sean Austin) does fall into the proper definition though? His character does exist for the most part to lift every other character around him, especially Joyce Byers.
Yay! Real conversation!
Thanks for taking the time to look into it. I haven’t watched The Last of Us, but from your description, it sounds right.
TLOU is good and potentially fits the criteria, I’m not sure actually, as the main female character is a child so inherently vulnerable and kinda reliant on this achey old man to ferry her through the apocalypse. Would still recommend, I cried like a baby through certain parts.
The Sean Astin character I’m referencing is in Stranger Things S2. I think has at least one potential example of female gaze (as a compliment to Winona Ryder’s character).
Stranger Things probably isn’t great for other metrics though, like the Bechdel test.
Oh my bad. Mixed up the shows! Yeah I’ve seen S2! Completely forgot he was in it. Sean Astin is a good pick. Also killing him off so soon and so unceremoniously is an absolute crime.
Just a tangent: In my film class back in school, they defined the male gaze by what the camera focuses on, i.e. does it mimic what a straight, male viewer would focus on. Whether a character is “designed for the male gaze” is kind of squishy, and debatable, but the mechanical, film-studies definition of male gaze is indisputable. Once you see it, you can’t unsee how many times a female character is introduced by panning up her body.
Exactly. This is pretty much what I wanted to say, but couldn’t find the words.