China’s workers don’t control the capital, live under a dictatorship, and corporations do most of their manufacturing in China. They’re as socialist as the national-socialists.
Marxism-leninism has routinely been shown to not work. China doesn’t have a command economy or worker-controlled capital. If China’s people were free, they could access the internet. Furthermore, how is secret police a tenet of the Chinese freedom I’ve had shoved down my throat by Marxist-Leninists? Furthermore, how are the Uyghur people bourgeois?
Let me simplify this. A lot of people in this thread were justifying oppression saying it was for the people. I’m not saying that Muslims are bourgeois, I’m saying that the Uyghur genocide is unjustified as they’re not antagonized to the proletariat, but rather an ethnic group.
Virtually everything you state is false. China does not technically have a command economy, but this is not necessary for socialism in the first place. China engages in plenty of economic planning, far more so than capitalist states. That is precisely why China can build 45,000 km of unprofitable high-speed rail in less than 20 years and install more solar generation capacity than all other countries combined in 2023.
Industries in China are also far more worker-controlled than they are in capitalist states. Estimates for the level of state-ownership range from 20-40%. Much of the remaining “private sector” is composed of worker cooperatives. Search up “Farmer specialized cooperatives”, which comprise of more than 100 million households (not people, households).
As for the Uyghur thing, even western media has largely abandoned that point since it was too easy to see that no one was being killed. I mean, you can buy a plane ticket to Xinjang right now and see for yourself. Now the smarter ones have downgraded it to “cultural genocide”. In a few years, when the Uyghur language and culture will still be around just fine, they will quiet drop the whole topic.
Have you not heard of the great firewall. Do you think Nike and iPhone factories are coops? Furthermore genocide does not explicitly have to be killing civilians. Xi did things such as forcefully reeducate children, force Muslims to eat pork, and forcefully sterilize them, thereby making them and their culture die out.
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
I’m sorry that some comrades here have been dismissive toward you, but you seriously need to educate yourself more on a subject before you speak on it thinking that you have understood it. There are plenty of resources that the Lemmygrad community can offer you to further your knowledge about China if you leave your preconceptions at the door and come at this with some humility.
Whether it prevents bourgeois propaganda or western propaganda, it’s not worth it when the people aren’t free. I also find it to be very opposite to Marx implying that the Chinese government wouldn’t try to control their people if they could.
Here’s a paper covering the topic from a few years ago.. It goes through the history, motivations, and effects of the Golden Shield Project. It also briefly covers the opinions from people on both sides of the firewall and tries to remain neutral as it’s a research communication. Download the PDF to read.
What the paper doesn’t cover deeply is what information the CPC has chosen to censor and why. Materials subversive to the stability of their country. From whom? Of what nature? What historical precedent exists that would have made them want to do this in the late nineties?
Exploring the history of interactions between socialist countries and liberal countries will shed light on this. I’d also suggest looking into examples of censorship in western liberal countries and contrasting them with censorship in China.
Your reply pointed to a lot of assumptions from the Western liberal perspective, which is actively antagonistic and hostile towards China. If the only perspective you ever consume is from states who consider China a threat to their power, then of course you will hold a negative bias towards China.
The more you study, the better you will understand. If you approach the topic wanting to demonize China, you won’t learn anything. There’s a lot more to unpack here including Western media bias and leftist theory beyond Marx. This is just a stepping stone to understanding.
If you don’t know the purpose and goals of the project that the firewall is part of, then you don’t understand why China has a firewall.
Tell me, are you really free or do you assume you are free because you’ve always been told you are free and you’ve only ever heard one definition of freedom? To me, the illusion of freedom of speech, the illusion of freedom of choice, and being told to choose between a handful of shitheads who don’t represent or act according to how I would like to see our society run is not freedom. It’s just authoritarianism from a different source. It’s who has power that matters to me. I’d rather be held accountable by my peers than by a bunch of chucklefucks who only see me as an expendable resource.
You call me wrong, yet don’t bring a source to debunk me. You call me smug, yet speak of me as if I’m an animal. I will say the Communist tendency to hate liberals is why this movement has yet to succeed in the US. You seem incapable of knowing that liberals are just more mild versions of communists and if we want marxist movements we must move within a big tent party, since we don’t have large enough numbers to do anything within any democratic country.
First, I am a communist. Second, I’m not victim blaming, I’m saying that we can’t attain any progress in a democracy if we dont work with liberals, as we dont have have the number. I’m not saying “become liberal”, I’m saying that we need to work within a big teny party to attain power. While I do disagree with you, both as an ML and your specific viewpoint, I will not deny that I’d rather have communists I disagree with than the us’ spiral into fascism.
Also, you shouldn’t complain about sourcing your arguments. Even if you’re not arguing with me, you will argue with other people who, whether you’re correct or incorrect, will demand sources.
Don’t conflate liberals and the right. Liberals don’t actively try to fuck over workers like rightists are. Further, it doesn’t matter what liberals were 100 years ago, do you think Biden is as bad as Trump?
Liberalism only appears on the left if your political spectrum extends from “capitalism, but the poor get some scraps” to “capitalism, but the poor don’t get scraps”.
Liberals literally do fuck over the workers, the very structure they maintain, capitalism, is the exploitation of workers.
Plenty of MLs will engage with you patiently. It just gets very annoying when you guys come in swinging with easily debunked or out of context factoids. Remember, this is an internet forum, not an organization of professionals.
Freedom of a populace is not measured by access to the Internet but rather by what their government does to improve their material conditions, such as housing. I support the freedom to live inside a house, not the freedom to be homeless after a 1000$ misfortune, like in the U.S.
I personally view it as that if you can’t allow people to see other viewpoints, then material conditions don’t matter. As John Stuart Mill said in On Liberty, the person’s ability to choose for themself is more important than an alleged better living condition. Furthermore, I see that if China were so much better, they would let their people see the alternative. By not letting their people see something they allege is worse, they prove it is better.
I am right now very happy for lemmygrads taglines, a) I was reminded (all day) this quote exists, and b) I didn’t have to go far to find it:
It is difficult for me to imagine what ‘personal liberty’ is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment. Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society is real, and not paper, personal and every other liberty possible
Again, I do not argue for capitalism, I agree with Stalin on this quote. I’m saying that I can go into whatever forum I want, and say that Joe Biden is committing genocide, and I don’t disappear, I don’t “kill myself” in my hotel room. I’m not defending capitalism, as I am a communist. The condition in which the worker lives is irreconcilable the universal liberty, however if China is socialism, in terms of liberty, they would be the same. I believe that socialism could be so much better. I believe that China could be so much better and it will be someday. But the state will not allow it.
You have to be a troll. But - you’re a pretty funny one. A Boeing whistleblower ‘killed himself in a hotel room’ literally just last week. You can yell at Joe Biden however much you want, he’s still gonna commit genocide without blinking.
What even is your first sentence, that shit literally makes no sense. Oh yeah, I’d rather be able to have access to diverse viewpoints rather than affordable housing or sustinence or a good job lmao
Let me simplify it for you. It doesn’t matter if they allegedly have better material conditions when they can’t view information contrary to the state.
Hey y’all it doesn’t matter if you lift billions of people out of poverty and they never have to worry about certain material conditions and therefore improve their quality of life, what makes a society better is being able to “view information contrary to the state”.
Ha yes, I’m sure having fucking google make the homeless in NY city sooo much better off than the peoples living in nice cheap apartments in Beijing. Tell me you’ve never been poor without telling me you’ve never been poor. 🤡
deleted by creator
China’s workers don’t control the capital, live under a dictatorship, and corporations do most of their manufacturing in China. They’re as socialist as the national-socialists.
deleted by creator
that was a great read. thank you
Marxism-leninism has routinely been shown to not work. China doesn’t have a command economy or worker-controlled capital. If China’s people were free, they could access the internet. Furthermore, how is secret police a tenet of the Chinese freedom I’ve had shoved down my throat by Marxist-Leninists? Furthermore, how are the Uyghur people bourgeois?
I think it’s pretty cute that you try to use Marxist terminology without understanding it. I’m sincere 🥰
This is easily a top 3 all time dunk, i can’t stop laughing.
Let me simplify this. A lot of people in this thread were justifying oppression saying it was for the people. I’m not saying that Muslims are bourgeois, I’m saying that the Uyghur genocide is unjustified as they’re not antagonized to the proletariat, but rather an ethnic group.
Indeed, you didn’t say that Muslims are bourgeois, you asked if Uyghurs were bourgeois.
Why would Uyghurs be bourgeois?
It’s called a rhetorical question, glad I could help
Why would Uyghurs be bourgeois? edit: we shall never know 😔
you are saying very very silly things and i must ask you to stop
Virtually everything you state is false. China does not technically have a command economy, but this is not necessary for socialism in the first place. China engages in plenty of economic planning, far more so than capitalist states. That is precisely why China can build 45,000 km of unprofitable high-speed rail in less than 20 years and install more solar generation capacity than all other countries combined in 2023.
Industries in China are also far more worker-controlled than they are in capitalist states. Estimates for the level of state-ownership range from 20-40%. Much of the remaining “private sector” is composed of worker cooperatives. Search up “Farmer specialized cooperatives”, which comprise of more than 100 million households (not people, households).
As for the Uyghur thing, even western media has largely abandoned that point since it was too easy to see that no one was being killed. I mean, you can buy a plane ticket to Xinjang right now and see for yourself. Now the smarter ones have downgraded it to “cultural genocide”. In a few years, when the Uyghur language and culture will still be around just fine, they will quiet drop the whole topic.
They can
Have you not heard of the great firewall. Do you think Nike and iPhone factories are coops? Furthermore genocide does not explicitly have to be killing civilians. Xi did things such as forcefully reeducate children, force Muslims to eat pork, and forcefully sterilize them, thereby making them and their culture die out. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Citing Wikipedia is not the own you think it is.
I’m not trying to own you. I’m trying to get a meaningful argument which isn’t me being talked about as an animal.
I’m sorry that some comrades here have been dismissive toward you, but you seriously need to educate yourself more on a subject before you speak on it thinking that you have understood it. There are plenty of resources that the Lemmygrad community can offer you to further your knowledge about China if you leave your preconceptions at the door and come at this with some humility.
Do you understand why the firewall exists?
Whether it prevents bourgeois propaganda or western propaganda, it’s not worth it when the people aren’t free. I also find it to be very opposite to Marx implying that the Chinese government wouldn’t try to control their people if they could.
Here’s a paper covering the topic from a few years ago.. It goes through the history, motivations, and effects of the Golden Shield Project. It also briefly covers the opinions from people on both sides of the firewall and tries to remain neutral as it’s a research communication. Download the PDF to read.
What the paper doesn’t cover deeply is what information the CPC has chosen to censor and why. Materials subversive to the stability of their country. From whom? Of what nature? What historical precedent exists that would have made them want to do this in the late nineties?
Exploring the history of interactions between socialist countries and liberal countries will shed light on this. I’d also suggest looking into examples of censorship in western liberal countries and contrasting them with censorship in China.
Your reply pointed to a lot of assumptions from the Western liberal perspective, which is actively antagonistic and hostile towards China. If the only perspective you ever consume is from states who consider China a threat to their power, then of course you will hold a negative bias towards China.
The more you study, the better you will understand. If you approach the topic wanting to demonize China, you won’t learn anything. There’s a lot more to unpack here including Western media bias and leftist theory beyond Marx. This is just a stepping stone to understanding.
If you don’t know the purpose and goals of the project that the firewall is part of, then you don’t understand why China has a firewall.
Tell me, are you really free or do you assume you are free because you’ve always been told you are free and you’ve only ever heard one definition of freedom? To me, the illusion of freedom of speech, the illusion of freedom of choice, and being told to choose between a handful of shitheads who don’t represent or act according to how I would like to see our society run is not freedom. It’s just authoritarianism from a different source. It’s who has power that matters to me. I’d rather be held accountable by my peers than by a bunch of chucklefucks who only see me as an expendable resource.
How is it opposite to Marx?
deleted by creator
You call me wrong, yet don’t bring a source to debunk me. You call me smug, yet speak of me as if I’m an animal. I will say the Communist tendency to hate liberals is why this movement has yet to succeed in the US. You seem incapable of knowing that liberals are just more mild versions of communists and if we want marxist movements we must move within a big tent party, since we don’t have large enough numbers to do anything within any democratic country.
deleted by creator
The “art” part of your username is certainly true. Incredible comment!
Man this was some David Attenborough type of reading 😭🙌🏿
Edit: went back and read this in Steve Irwin’s voice I’m dying 💀
Another name added to the victims of communism, if only he hadn’t already been braindead
I love your username.
First, I am a communist. Second, I’m not victim blaming, I’m saying that we can’t attain any progress in a democracy if we dont work with liberals, as we dont have have the number. I’m not saying “become liberal”, I’m saying that we need to work within a big teny party to attain power. While I do disagree with you, both as an ML and your specific viewpoint, I will not deny that I’d rather have communists I disagree with than the us’ spiral into fascism.
Also, you shouldn’t complain about sourcing your arguments. Even if you’re not arguing with me, you will argue with other people who, whether you’re correct or incorrect, will demand sources.
…
deleted by creator
I am begging you, please read a book, any book by anyone on the left written in the last 180 years.
Liberals support capitalism, communists and everyone else on the left seek to abolish it.
Don’t conflate liberals and the right. Liberals don’t actively try to fuck over workers like rightists are. Further, it doesn’t matter what liberals were 100 years ago, do you think Biden is as bad as Trump?
Liberalism only appears on the left if your political spectrum extends from “capitalism, but the poor get some scraps” to “capitalism, but the poor don’t get scraps”.
Liberals literally do fuck over the workers, the very structure they maintain, capitalism, is the exploitation of workers.
fuck over workers like rightists do*
Plenty of MLs will engage with you patiently. It just gets very annoying when you guys come in swinging with easily debunked or out of context factoids. Remember, this is an internet forum, not an organization of professionals.
It really also gets annoying to me that you call them out of context, but don’t give context.
I replied to you in a different comment.
Freedom of a populace is not measured by access to the Internet but rather by what their government does to improve their material conditions, such as housing. I support the freedom to live inside a house, not the freedom to be homeless after a 1000$ misfortune, like in the U.S.
I personally view it as that if you can’t allow people to see other viewpoints, then material conditions don’t matter. As John Stuart Mill said in On Liberty, the person’s ability to choose for themself is more important than an alleged better living condition. Furthermore, I see that if China were so much better, they would let their people see the alternative. By not letting their people see something they allege is worse, they prove it is better.
I am right now very happy for lemmygrads taglines, a) I was reminded (all day) this quote exists, and b) I didn’t have to go far to find it:
– J. V. Stalin, Interview Between J. Stalin and Roy Howard
Again, I do not argue for capitalism, I agree with Stalin on this quote. I’m saying that I can go into whatever forum I want, and say that Joe Biden is committing genocide, and I don’t disappear, I don’t “kill myself” in my hotel room. I’m not defending capitalism, as I am a communist. The condition in which the worker lives is irreconcilable the universal liberty, however if China is socialism, in terms of liberty, they would be the same. I believe that socialism could be so much better. I believe that China could be so much better and it will be someday. But the state will not allow it.
You have to be a troll. But - you’re a pretty funny one. A Boeing whistleblower ‘killed himself in a hotel room’ literally just last week. You can yell at Joe Biden however much you want, he’s still gonna commit genocide without blinking.
What even is your first sentence, that shit literally makes no sense. Oh yeah, I’d rather be able to have access to diverse viewpoints rather than affordable housing or sustinence or a good job lmao
Let me simplify it for you. It doesn’t matter if they allegedly have better material conditions when they can’t view information contrary to the state.
Hey y’all it doesn’t matter if you lift billions of people out of poverty and they never have to worry about certain material conditions and therefore improve their quality of life, what makes a society better is being able to “view information contrary to the state”.
Hey, I’ve seen this one before
Ha yes, I’m sure having fucking google make the homeless in NY city sooo much better off than the peoples living in nice cheap apartments in Beijing. Tell me you’ve never been poor without telling me you’ve never been poor. 🤡
Said by someone who has never really been hungry,