The Holocaust is one of those things that’s just simply not up for debate: it happened just about exactly as people said it did
We have physical proof from the camps themselves - with the Soviets being the first to liberate concentration camps, and being the first to begin preservation of evidence
We have documentation from the camps, actual papers telling us exactly what they were doing. We have bodies, tattoos on survivors, empty Zyklon canisters. We have the actual minutes of the meeting at Wansee where the cold calculus of the Holocaust was laid out
While the aftermath of it has occasionally been politicized, usually around Israel, the simple fact of it existing isn’t political. There’s a good blog with an unfortunate name called Holocaust Controversies that debunks a lot of Holocaust denial and will provide primary sources frequently to do so
When you examine news and media with a critical eye, you have to do it critically, not just be contrarian
Yes, facts around Xinjiang and the Ukranian famine are distorted for propaganda purposes - this does not mean other genocides were. You got the “we shouldn’t accept everything we’re told at face value” part without getting to the second part of examining the claims to discover what’s true and what isn’t
In this case, your questioning of the Holocaust comes out of antisemitism, full stop, because you need to ask yourself: who distorts facts, and why?
With Xinjiang, facts are distorted by Adrian Zenz (a religious zealot against China) and western governments as a cudgel against China for being a perceived enemy state. Claims are distorted or fabricated to make China look bad
With the Holodomor, facts are distorted by Nazis as part of the Double Holocaust myth in order to downplay their own atrocities and make the Soviets look as bad or worse. That a famine happened isn’t in debate however, what is debated and distorted is whether the famine was intentionally engineered as a Ukranian genocide
Now take that and apply it to the Holocaust. If you question the facts and veracity of it, the question becomes to what purpose? The only people who could possibly stand to gain from distorting facts here would be the Jewish people, and that line of thinking is blatant antisemitism
Tldr shut the fuck up and read some history. No investigation, no right to speak
??? This is a massive overreaction to someone admitting they dont know enough about something, ive also posted that nazi rhetoric clearly doesnt put any doubt into the events. Im not equating what you think Im equating
All im saying is that i never read into it personally and id argue im not the only one here.
Please disengage with me, its seriously not worth your time.
Edit: or mine just let me read the shit the person above linked, i dont think you get how shitty my primary education was
You keep blaming your education, when really you should be blaming yourself. The person above you wants you to stop blaming others for your ignorance, and actively read about the horseshit you say.
If you’re going to say something, do the bare minimum and atleast try to educate yourself. There are so many world war one and two books which will go into the why, hows, and extent of the wars. No one debates whether or not the holocaust happened. The biggest debate still on going, was just how many people died. Was it 6million people, was it 12 million? So many people were killed we can’t decide on an accurate number. So many bodies literally burned after being incinerated that we can never know. The only people saying it simply didn’t happen, are those who committed those atrocities, and want the chance at being able to commit them again.
Its very difficult to believe you had a “massive lack of education” yet still somehow have the education to know you should care more about it.
There are so many things to learn about and rabbit hole down i dont blame myself for not knowing the finer points of something horrible nazis did and what youre saying im saying is not what im saying. No one is arguing nazis didnt murder a bunch of people.
Again i argue that im not the only one with this issue of just osmosising information yet not really knowing any details
Also Its not like i dont spend most of my free time being productive as it is, the chiding is weird and uncalled for imo as none of you know me irl
Well, A LOT of stuff happend. You could watch a documentary on the topic, I think most of them are pretty objective.
A general rule is pretty much if someone says the Nazis did something good, they are probably lying. Seriously. Even the infamous “But Hitler made the Autobahn” thing is blown highly out of proportion.
You have to honor them when you call for them, This means, no paragraphs of text BEFORE OR AFTER the disengage call. No posts responding to people responding to you, just report them saying you called to disengage.
This discussion went far off the rails. I understand where you’re coming from, I think. It sounds like you want some recommended academic sources that cover precisely what the nazis did. After all, it wasn’t just camps, there is also all of the scientific research they destroyed, the piles of dead bodies left in pits, and many more atrocities, too many to name.
It sounds like you don’t want to just do a google search, because you’re worried that you’ll get twisted american sources, like you would if you searched for stuff about uyghurs or the holodomor.
This is not unreasonable.
Personally, I think I could use an academic review of the exact horrors of the holocaust myself. Been a while since highschool. However, this post in the dunk tank is not the appropriate forum for it.
I would like to invite you to make a post on askchapo, or another appropriate comm, asking for recommendations for reading to learn about the holocaust.
I’ve issued a temp ban because I think things got worse than they should have here. It will expire in 5 days.
If you want to message me personally about any of these topics, I have some academic friends, maybe I can hook you up with some good papers on the subject. Otherwise, for this topic specifically, you’ll probably get some decent sources from even just a google search.
Removed by mod
The Holocaust is one of those things that’s just simply not up for debate: it happened just about exactly as people said it did
We have physical proof from the camps themselves - with the Soviets being the first to liberate concentration camps, and being the first to begin preservation of evidence
We have documentation from the camps, actual papers telling us exactly what they were doing. We have bodies, tattoos on survivors, empty Zyklon canisters. We have the actual minutes of the meeting at Wansee where the cold calculus of the Holocaust was laid out
While the aftermath of it has occasionally been politicized, usually around Israel, the simple fact of it existing isn’t political. There’s a good blog with an unfortunate name called Holocaust Controversies that debunks a lot of Holocaust denial and will provide primary sources frequently to do so
Removed by mod
holocaust history isn’t hidden. you can do research on it, like any other historical event.
Yes but we have people saying Xinjiang is a real genocide and twisting the facts of the holodomor and the great famine in china
Okay this is reaching Holocaust denial levels
When you examine news and media with a critical eye, you have to do it critically, not just be contrarian
Yes, facts around Xinjiang and the Ukranian famine are distorted for propaganda purposes - this does not mean other genocides were. You got the “we shouldn’t accept everything we’re told at face value” part without getting to the second part of examining the claims to discover what’s true and what isn’t
In this case, your questioning of the Holocaust comes out of antisemitism, full stop, because you need to ask yourself: who distorts facts, and why?
With Xinjiang, facts are distorted by Adrian Zenz (a religious zealot against China) and western governments as a cudgel against China for being a perceived enemy state. Claims are distorted or fabricated to make China look bad
With the Holodomor, facts are distorted by Nazis as part of the Double Holocaust myth in order to downplay their own atrocities and make the Soviets look as bad or worse. That a famine happened isn’t in debate however, what is debated and distorted is whether the famine was intentionally engineered as a Ukranian genocide
Now take that and apply it to the Holocaust. If you question the facts and veracity of it, the question becomes to what purpose? The only people who could possibly stand to gain from distorting facts here would be the Jewish people, and that line of thinking is blatant antisemitism
Tldr shut the fuck up and read some history. No investigation, no right to speak
??? This is a massive overreaction to someone admitting they dont know enough about something, ive also posted that nazi rhetoric clearly doesnt put any doubt into the events. Im not equating what you think Im equating
All im saying is that i never read into it personally and id argue im not the only one here.
Please disengage with me, its seriously not worth your time.
Edit: or mine just let me read the shit the person above linked, i dont think you get how shitty my primary education was
You keep blaming your education, when really you should be blaming yourself. The person above you wants you to stop blaming others for your ignorance, and actively read about the horseshit you say.
If you’re going to say something, do the bare minimum and atleast try to educate yourself. There are so many world war one and two books which will go into the why, hows, and extent of the wars. No one debates whether or not the holocaust happened. The biggest debate still on going, was just how many people died. Was it 6million people, was it 12 million? So many people were killed we can’t decide on an accurate number. So many bodies literally burned after being incinerated that we can never know. The only people saying it simply didn’t happen, are those who committed those atrocities, and want the chance at being able to commit them again.
Its very difficult to believe you had a “massive lack of education” yet still somehow have the education to know you should care more about it.
There are so many things to learn about and rabbit hole down i dont blame myself for not knowing the finer points of something horrible nazis did and what youre saying im saying is not what im saying. No one is arguing nazis didnt murder a bunch of people.
Again i argue that im not the only one with this issue of just osmosising information yet not really knowing any details
Also Its not like i dont spend most of my free time being productive as it is, the chiding is weird and uncalled for imo as none of you know me irl
Especially you random lemmy liberal
God forbid you admit you dont know something
Liberal /= Left. Buddy, you were asking what made the nazis so bad. Well, the holocaust kinda says everything.
Im reporting 🙄 you cant be this obtuse
Fucking read
It happend.
Yeah but like what happened exactly as to defend myself and others from nazi propaganda?
Well, A LOT of stuff happend. You could watch a documentary on the topic, I think most of them are pretty objective.
A general rule is pretty much if someone says the Nazis did something good, they are probably lying. Seriously. Even the infamous “But Hitler made the Autobahn” thing is blown highly out of proportion.
Hey, so a couple things:
disengages
You have to honor them when you call for them, This means, no paragraphs of text BEFORE OR AFTER the disengage call. No posts responding to people responding to you, just report them saying you called to disengage.
This discussion went far off the rails. I understand where you’re coming from, I think. It sounds like you want some recommended academic sources that cover precisely what the nazis did. After all, it wasn’t just camps, there is also all of the scientific research they destroyed, the piles of dead bodies left in pits, and many more atrocities, too many to name.
It sounds like you don’t want to just do a google search, because you’re worried that you’ll get twisted american sources, like you would if you searched for stuff about uyghurs or the holodomor.
This is not unreasonable.
Personally, I think I could use an academic review of the exact horrors of the holocaust myself. Been a while since highschool. However, this post in the dunk tank is not the appropriate forum for it.
I would like to invite you to make a post on askchapo, or another appropriate comm, asking for recommendations for reading to learn about the holocaust.
I’ve issued a temp ban because I think things got worse than they should have here. It will expire in 5 days.
If you want to message me personally about any of these topics, I have some academic friends, maybe I can hook you up with some good papers on the subject. Otherwise, for this topic specifically, you’ll probably get some decent sources from even just a google search.