the right wing ethos that boils my blood the quickest is when people drool out shit like ‘play stupid games win stupid prizes’ under a story about some guy getting brutally beaten by police for being at a protest or stealing a dvd
Yeah, of course the video doesn’t show any of the events leading up to the arrest, so we can only speculate what really happened.
Yes it doesn’t look like fun and I’m all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt, but the guy also looks and acts like he might be on drugs, and he’s out in public not wearing a shirt, which already shows at least a tendency towards blatant disregard for the rules, but either way, we should be careful to jump any conclusions when seeing something like that, because there’s definitely a big part of the story that’s missing here.
But the good news is, it looks like he survived, so I’m sure he’ll get to have his day in court to prove his innocence, and I sure hope that he won’t be punished excessively or unjustly.
If you automatically side with the supposed victim despite the clear lack of any information about prior events leading to this scene, I might as well accuse you of “uniform and badge, no presumption of innocence”. It’s just as biased and therefore bigoted as the opposite stance.
That’s why we have the courts, though. The cops will have to prove that they had a legitimate reason to make an arrest or the judge will just let the guy go. Happens often enough, believe it or not.
Again, without being able to see what happened before the video started, it’s hard to judge whether this was a proportionate response or not.
If your default assumption is ACAB and they’re just doing this to hurt him because they can, then you’re just as biased as you’re accusing me of being. And I’m not saying the cops are by always innocent by default, but I’ve also seen enough people like this guy act like major dickheads before claiming to be a victim of police brutality.
But once again, if he did nothing wrong, I hope he goes free. And with a nice check to boot, if they did use excessive force. But that’s up to the judge to decide, not me.
That’s IF the case goes to trial at all. If the cops can’t make a good enough case for why you should be charged with something, they often won’t even bother with that and just let you go. Remember, they ARE allowed to arrest you if they think you’re posing a danger to the public, but they’re not allowed to keep you locked up indefinitely without charging you with something.
Sure, it sucks if you get arrested when you did nothing wrong, but at least we can be pretty sure this guy is not going to a gulag for buying a pizza.
Ok but resisting arrest IS a crime. If you haven’t done anything wrong, just let them arrest you, they can’t keep you locked up without charging you with something.
Every single case of someone being convicted only for resisting arrest is a case where it would have been better for them to comply since the cops clearly either didn’t find anything else or couldn’t make any of the other charges stick.
Did you not see that video of a cop trying to murder someone over an acorn? As long as courts consistently give cops the benefit of the doubt, you should assume the worst of them.
It’s just an example. Like Breonna Taylor, who did nothing wrong, whose boyfriend (Kenneth Walker) did nothing wrong, while the police did multiple things wrong and ended up killing her.
But even looking beyond individual examples, the data shows police killed over 1,200 people in 2023. That’s a problem.
1,200 out of how many interactions with the public? Or even out of how many attempted arrests? Remember this is a country of over 300 million people, and 1,200 is 0.0004% of that. For comparison, over 45,000 people died in motor vehicle accidents in 2021 (source), so your chance of being killed in a car accident is almost 40x as high as that of being killed by police.
Yes, I looked at your source, it has tons of graphs but conveniently seems to forget to include that.
Among the 61.5 million U.S. residents age 16 or older in 2018 who had contact with police during the prior 12 months, 1.3 million (2%) experienced threats or use of force from police
Yes, there are 300 million but that negate the problem of police violence. You could make this argument about anything: gun violence, car crashes, even cancer. Their deaths are all a percent of a percent of the population.
No one is saying police violence is the number one killer in the country. The issue being raised is one side is saying it’s a problem and the other is saying actually it’s not a problem at all.
Okay, but let’s not move the goalposts now. If 61.5 million US residents had contact with the police, and out of those, 1,200 were killed, that’s approx. 0.002%.
Again, let’s compare that to the death by car accident rate, which is approx. 45,000/300,000,000 * 100 = 0.015%, which means driving a car is about 7.5x as dangerous to your life as interacting with the police. And I’m not saying there isn’t a problem, but do you see why some people are saying this isn’t really worth talking about?
…it’s not moving the goalposts. My initial comment stated it was a problem and that’s what my second comment said.
Again, cancer only kills ~600k in a year, which is only 2/10ths of 1% of the population. Better yet, it kills over 10x more people than car accidents. Does that mean car safety isn’t worth talking about?
And I’m not saying there isn’t a problem
This statement makes me think you are saying that:
…do you see why some people are saying this isn’t really worth talking about?
I do think this is worth talking about, just like I think the hundreds of death row convictions that have been overturned are worth talking about or the ~500k homeless Americans are worth talking about or the kids who have been killed in school shootings are worth talking about. These are all tiny percentages of people but they are still problems that are preventable so we should try to prevent them, which requires talking about them.
Left wingers say this about forced birthers or antivaxxers.
The left wing version is usually about people getting cancelled after saying unwoke things. And the phrasing they usually use is something along “Oh no! It’s the consequences of my own actions!”
Yeah corporations have no recognition of human rights in their charter, so when a corporation mistreats you that’s just your own fault for putting your life in the hands of a corp.
I’m not trying to claim that the “consequences” are the same. The cancel culture thing is more than “being called an asshole” and can ruin or at least severely damage a person’s career, but it’s still not as bad as systematic persecution or abuse of power.
I’m not trying to claim that the “actions” are the same either. Mainly because I think it’s futile - any internet discussion on that topic will be 100% political disposition and 0% actual attempt to analyze the severity of said actions.
I will mention though - risking that merely mentioning this will derail the entire discussion - that both you and @starman2112@sh.itjust.works have each elected to diminish one of these parameters (“calling you an asshole” vs ruining one’s career, and “a cop think you might have committed a crime” vs exercising a politically controversial right). In both cases there was no need for that - in both cases the right-wing practice is worse than the left-wing practice even if you don’t try to manipulate the argument. So why do it?
(this is more aimed at you than at starman. Like I said before - when it comes to the “actions” part, the political bias is very strong, and I can totally see how a conservative would claim that participating in a protest is worse than using racial slurs. Still - that’s no excuse to use a strawman)
But the real point I was trying to make is about the sin shared by both left and right: trying to present the “stupid prizes” or “consequences” as an unavoidable law of nature, where it is in fact the intentional actions of humans trying to punish that behavior. If you think certain actions deserve punishment, stand behind this - don’t try to disguise it as a “consequence”. The punishment is derived from your beliefs, not from the laws of nature.
You have just framed it in a way that makes the right look bad, but the left is just as bad. Literally the left calls for punching “Nazis”, and they define Nazis as people that have different opinions than them.
Heard it here first, folks! The problem with the left is how its impossible to tell if theyre joking or not when calling ppl nazis. reviews the super duper long list of times The Left TM has called someone a nazi for the lulz yup, seems legit!
There’s a fundamental difference between someone getting hurt trying to fight for their human rights, versus someone getting hurt fighting to take away other peoples human rights.
There is no such thing as human rights (at least in my country). Calling it that probably makes you feel your cause is superior and the other side is evil. Quite convenient. All my rights are guaranteed by the constitution, and federal/state/local laws. If it’s not listed in these examples, it is not a right.
This was created by the UN, which has no power to enforce such a document. It does not apply to every country. Not every country is a member of the UN. A group of powerless humans can’t go around enforcing their views on others. According to your link, member states: “have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms”. With that said…
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude
I believe leftists feel being forced to perform manual labor while imprisoned is a form of slavery/servitude. China is a member of the UN, and their treatment of Uyghur muslims is pretty well known at this point.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
There have been many reports (long ago and recently) of the US government using torture as a means to produce information.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest
I don’t have to tell you how often someone is frivolously arrested in the US.
I could go on but you get the picture. My own country doesn’t enforce these “universal human rights” thus, in the US, they are meaningless and basically don’t exist. Maybe other countries do a better job, and good on’em, but for the United States, there is no such thing as “human rights” only what the law allows and doesn’t allow, as I stated previously.
Every time y’all talk like this it makes you sound like you don’t think human rights should be respected or enforced.
I believe leftists feel being forced to perform manual labor while imprisoned is a form of slavery/servitude.
Yes, prisoners are outsourced via the private prison system to work jobs. In most prisons, this work is required by them. In most prisons, the inmates are paid less than $1 per hour. In several States, they he completely unpaid.
Seeing as the definition of slavery is defined by loss of rights, majority or total dependance on ones captors, and forced labor- yes, imprisonment in the US seems to be definitionally slavery, and so are most prison programs around the world.
China is a member of the UN, and their treatment of Uyghur muslims is pretty well known at this point.
There have been many reports (long ago and recently) of the US government using torture as a means to produce information.
I don’t have to tell you how often someone is frivolously arrested in the US.
These are all railed against by leftists as violationsmof human rights, constantly.
Yes, human rights are not some God-given rule of physics. They have to be fought for constantly.
Yes, the US is a hypocritical body that violates its own tenants constantly.
This does not mean ‘human rights don’t exist’. They are defined and codified. Their enforcement is does not determine their existence.
All my rights are guaranteed by the constitution, and federal/state/local laws. If it’s not listed in these examples, it is not a right.
A quick glance shows that even your constitutional rights have no weight. The system makes exceptions all the time and wields ambiguity like a weapon. All rights mean nothing when promised by a hypocritical and opportunistic state.
The difference is that one group is getting excessively hurt because of government response, which is something that can be changed through policy; while the other gets hurt by their own actions because they’re fucking r******d and thought disregarding a pandemic was a good idea, not because of the response the government might take
They’re referring to different things, plus when it’s referred to disproportionate police action, it serves as justification for the police replying with illegal brutality, rather than investigating and punishing police officers who break the law
Yeah, again, they can be different levels of justified, there is still two sides doing it. Celebrating the death of someone evil vs celebrating the death of someone good is still celebrating someones death.
the right wing ethos that boils my blood the quickest is when people drool out shit like ‘play stupid games win stupid prizes’ under a story about some guy getting brutally beaten by police for being at a protest or stealing a dvd
Who got beaten by police for stealing a dvd?
i guess i made that one up but here’s a violent arrest over a pizza
Yeah, of course the video doesn’t show any of the events leading up to the arrest, so we can only speculate what really happened.
Yes it doesn’t look like fun and I’m all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt, but the guy also looks and acts like he might be on drugs, and he’s out in public not wearing a shirt, which already shows at least a tendency towards blatant disregard for the rules, but either way, we should be careful to jump any conclusions when seeing something like that, because there’s definitely a big part of the story that’s missing here.
But the good news is, it looks like he survived, so I’m sure he’ll get to have his day in court to prove his innocence, and I sure hope that he won’t be punished excessively or unjustly.
Well that’s a good first step
As yes, those two infamous crimes of “possibly being on drugs” and “no shirt, no presumption of innocence”
Come on man. Be better.
If you automatically side with the supposed victim despite the clear lack of any information about prior events leading to this scene, I might as well accuse you of “uniform and badge, no presumption of innocence”. It’s just as biased and therefore bigoted as the opposite stance.
That’s why we have the courts, though. The cops will have to prove that they had a legitimate reason to make an arrest or the judge will just let the guy go. Happens often enough, believe it or not.
Arrest, yes. I’m less on board with the violence. I’m all about a proportionate response.
And that’s in general terms. There’s a reason people think all cops are bastards and it’s not because they dislike the colour blue.
Again, without being able to see what happened before the video started, it’s hard to judge whether this was a proportionate response or not.
If your default assumption is ACAB and they’re just doing this to hurt him because they can, then you’re just as biased as you’re accusing me of being. And I’m not saying the cops are by always innocent by default, but I’ve also seen enough people like this guy act like major dickheads before claiming to be a victim of police brutality.
But once again, if he did nothing wrong, I hope he goes free. And with a nice check to boot, if they did use excessive force. But that’s up to the judge to decide, not me.
For people who can afford a half decent lawyer, sure. For people stuck with a public defender, it’s a crapshoot.
That’s IF the case goes to trial at all. If the cops can’t make a good enough case for why you should be charged with something, they often won’t even bother with that and just let you go. Remember, they ARE allowed to arrest you if they think you’re posing a danger to the public, but they’re not allowed to keep you locked up indefinitely without charging you with something.
Sure, it sucks if you get arrested when you did nothing wrong, but at least we can be pretty sure this guy is not going to a gulag for buying a pizza.
Tell me you’ve never tangled with the legal system without telling me…
I urge you to look up cases of people only convicted of resisting arrest.
Ok but resisting arrest IS a crime. If you haven’t done anything wrong, just let them arrest you, they can’t keep you locked up without charging you with something.
Every single case of someone being convicted only for resisting arrest is a case where it would have been better for them to comply since the cops clearly either didn’t find anything else or couldn’t make any of the other charges stick.
Yes
they
can
And if you haven’t done anything wrong, why do we need to be arrested? What moral system says it’s okay to beat someone and charge them for the pleasure?
Did you not see that video of a cop trying to murder someone over an acorn? As long as courts consistently give cops the benefit of the doubt, you should assume the worst of them.
Yeah, well, the cops were clearly in the wrong there.
It’s just an example. Like Breonna Taylor, who did nothing wrong, whose boyfriend (Kenneth Walker) did nothing wrong, while the police did multiple things wrong and ended up killing her.
But even looking beyond individual examples, the data shows police killed over 1,200 people in 2023. That’s a problem.
Source
1,200 out of how many interactions with the public? Or even out of how many attempted arrests? Remember this is a country of over 300 million people, and 1,200 is 0.0004% of that. For comparison, over 45,000 people died in motor vehicle accidents in 2021 (source), so your chance of being killed in a car accident is almost 40x as high as that of being killed by police.
Yes, I looked at your source, it has tons of graphs but conveniently seems to forget to include that.
Source (PDF)
Yes, there are 300 million but that negate the problem of police violence. You could make this argument about anything: gun violence, car crashes, even cancer. Their deaths are all a percent of a percent of the population.
No one is saying police violence is the number one killer in the country. The issue being raised is one side is saying it’s a problem and the other is saying actually it’s not a problem at all.
Okay, but let’s not move the goalposts now. If 61.5 million US residents had contact with the police, and out of those, 1,200 were killed, that’s approx. 0.002%.
Again, let’s compare that to the death by car accident rate, which is approx. 45,000/300,000,000 * 100 = 0.015%, which means driving a car is about 7.5x as dangerous to your life as interacting with the police. And I’m not saying there isn’t a problem, but do you see why some people are saying this isn’t really worth talking about?
…it’s not moving the goalposts. My initial comment stated it was a problem and that’s what my second comment said.
Again, cancer only kills ~600k in a year, which is only 2/10ths of 1% of the population. Better yet, it kills over 10x more people than car accidents. Does that mean car safety isn’t worth talking about?
This statement makes me think you are saying that:
I do think this is worth talking about, just like I think the hundreds of death row convictions that have been overturned are worth talking about or the ~500k homeless Americans are worth talking about or the kids who have been killed in school shootings are worth talking about. These are all tiny percentages of people but they are still problems that are preventable so we should try to prevent them, which requires talking about them.
Not a DVD theft, but Eric Garner was killed in the altercation of his arrest for selling single cigarettes
How is this a right wing problem not a both sides problem?
Right wingers say this about protestors or whistleblowers.
Left wingers say this about forced birthers or antivaxxers.
You with your amazingly void intellect: bOtH SiDeS
The left wing version is usually about people getting cancelled after saying unwoke things. And the phrasing they usually use is something along “Oh no! It’s the consequences of my own actions!”
Getting fired from your job for calling someone the n word is not the same as getting beaten because a cop think you might have committed a crime
Yeah corporations have no recognition of human rights in their charter, so when a corporation mistreats you that’s just your own fault for putting your life in the hands of a corp.
Do you really not understand the difference betweene me calling you an asshole, and being stalked by glowies?
That’s not my point though.
I’m not trying to claim that the “consequences” are the same. The cancel culture thing is more than “being called an asshole” and can ruin or at least severely damage a person’s career, but it’s still not as bad as systematic persecution or abuse of power.
I’m not trying to claim that the “actions” are the same either. Mainly because I think it’s futile - any internet discussion on that topic will be 100% political disposition and 0% actual attempt to analyze the severity of said actions.
I will mention though - risking that merely mentioning this will derail the entire discussion - that both you and @starman2112@sh.itjust.works have each elected to diminish one of these parameters (“calling you an asshole” vs ruining one’s career, and “a cop think you might have committed a crime” vs exercising a politically controversial right). In both cases there was no need for that - in both cases the right-wing practice is worse than the left-wing practice even if you don’t try to manipulate the argument. So why do it?
(this is more aimed at you than at starman. Like I said before - when it comes to the “actions” part, the political bias is very strong, and I can totally see how a conservative would claim that participating in a protest is worse than using racial slurs. Still - that’s no excuse to use a strawman)
But the real point I was trying to make is about the sin shared by both left and right: trying to present the “stupid prizes” or “consequences” as an unavoidable law of nature, where it is in fact the intentional actions of humans trying to punish that behavior. If you think certain actions deserve punishment, stand behind this - don’t try to disguise it as a “consequence”. The punishment is derived from your beliefs, not from the laws of nature.
You have just framed it in a way that makes the right look bad, but the left is just as bad. Literally the left calls for punching “Nazis”, and they define Nazis as people that have different opinions than them.
Different opinions like?
Anything that includes one of the -ism or -phobias. They will call people like Tucker Carlson and Ben Shapiro Nazis.
That’s cause Tucker and Ben are nazis you halfwit.
The funny part is I cant tell if you are joking or not, and that is the problem with the left.
Heard it here first, folks! The problem with the left is how its impossible to tell if theyre joking or not when calling ppl nazis. reviews the super duper long list of times The Left TM has called someone a nazi for the lulz yup, seems legit!
Eta: formatting, clarity
I mean, you just re-affirmed it is both sides. The difference is that you agree with one of the sides.
There’s a fundamental difference between someone getting hurt trying to fight for their human rights, versus someone getting hurt fighting to take away other peoples human rights.
There is no such thing as human rights (at least in my country). Calling it that probably makes you feel your cause is superior and the other side is evil. Quite convenient. All my rights are guaranteed by the constitution, and federal/state/local laws. If it’s not listed in these examples, it is not a right.
I was just referring to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which applies to every country across the world, your country included.
This was created by the UN, which has no power to enforce such a document. It does not apply to every country. Not every country is a member of the UN. A group of powerless humans can’t go around enforcing their views on others. According to your link, member states: “have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms”. With that said…
I believe leftists feel being forced to perform manual labor while imprisoned is a form of slavery/servitude. China is a member of the UN, and their treatment of Uyghur muslims is pretty well known at this point.
There have been many reports (long ago and recently) of the US government using torture as a means to produce information.
I don’t have to tell you how often someone is frivolously arrested in the US.
I could go on but you get the picture. My own country doesn’t enforce these “universal human rights” thus, in the US, they are meaningless and basically don’t exist. Maybe other countries do a better job, and good on’em, but for the United States, there is no such thing as “human rights” only what the law allows and doesn’t allow, as I stated previously.
Every time y’all talk like this it makes you sound like you don’t think human rights should be respected or enforced.
Yes, prisoners are outsourced via the private prison system to work jobs. In most prisons, this work is required by them. In most prisons, the inmates are paid less than $1 per hour. In several States, they he completely unpaid.
Seeing as the definition of slavery is defined by loss of rights, majority or total dependance on ones captors, and forced labor- yes, imprisonment in the US seems to be definitionally slavery, and so are most prison programs around the world.
These are all railed against by leftists as violationsmof human rights, constantly.
Yes, human rights are not some God-given rule of physics. They have to be fought for constantly.
Yes, the US is a hypocritical body that violates its own tenants constantly.
This does not mean ‘human rights don’t exist’. They are defined and codified. Their enforcement is does not determine their existence.
A quick glance shows that even your constitutional rights have no weight. The system makes exceptions all the time and wields ambiguity like a weapon. All rights mean nothing when promised by a hypocritical and opportunistic state.
And they’d probably say the opposite is the case.
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They’d be incredibly stupid – bordering on braindead.
I mean, isn’t that what most sides say about their opponents? Or that they’re evil
“Enlightened centrists” really have no ability to think, huh?
The difference is that one group is getting excessively hurt because of government response, which is something that can be changed through policy; while the other gets hurt by their own actions because they’re fucking r******d and thought disregarding a pandemic was a good idea, not because of the response the government might take
Your disagreement can be justified, that doesn’t make it not something said it by both sides.
They’re referring to different things, plus when it’s referred to disproportionate police action, it serves as justification for the police replying with illegal brutality, rather than investigating and punishing police officers who break the law
Yeah, again, they can be different levels of justified, there is still two sides doing it. Celebrating the death of someone evil vs celebrating the death of someone good is still celebrating someones death.
I have great news for you: advances in biomedicine project that you might be able to grow a brain in the next 50 years.
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