Probably not too unpopular here.
Standing waiting for the bus in my city with decent transit and I have 2 trucks rev their engines loudly past me, another one letting just clouds of pollution, watching people driving who aren’t paying attention and several people blowing cutting last second through a light. All in just 3 minutes by a small corner with light traffic.
Made me think how cars are inherently selfish. People don’t want to be around others (the fear aspect), so they drive their own bubble around. In addition to that, some go out of their way to make their cars even worse to people outside of them.
No wonder we can’t move away from them. They are a definition of our own culture
I think calling it a culture of fear and selfishness is a pretty significant disservice to the reality of how car companies bought and dismantled public transit.
It was stolen from us, we didn’t reject it.
Lots of people are happy to reject it these days though, it’s like the mythical Stockholm syndrome come to life
That’s definitely a big part, but it’s both. Like white flight out of cities and insisting on a detached suburban home, the other part of the story is that cars represent “social worth” for many in North America.
It’s why car people become so angrily defensive, and fight even modest changes. Cars aren’t just functional. They represent a cherished value system. Their worth as a person is tied up with their car.
That said, just like diamond rings and smoking, even this weird cultural norm was bought by industry advertising. We’re social apes, who do things to feel important and valued, even when it otherwise makes no sense.
You literally can’t commute in the US without a car. There aren’t any sidewalks and everything is so spread out it would take a full day to get groceries by bike.
I live in Denver. Transit is decent. The light rail can be a faster commute during rush hour. Plenty of regional buses to go hiking and skiing. Under 10 min walk to multiple grocery stores. Regional bike path network span multiple cities.
It’s not perfect, but I’ve been car free for over two years with very little issue.
Edit, to add to this: It’s more convenient for me to take the train to the airport or the bus to the slopes. Some ski resorts will charge more for daily parking then a round-trip bus ticket. And driving to the ski resorts is a traffic nightmare, much rather just sit on the bus and not worry about it.
Agreed that it’s doable in a number of areas. I’m in the suburbs where that’s harder, though I happen to be near a grocery store at least.
I moved from the suburbs to the city. I sacrificed a bit of living space and have higher rent. But the increased rent is offset by the lack of car payments, insurance, etc.
Everyone’s situation is different and not everyone has the flexibility to move. But there are many cities in the US that are affordable and have decent transit. Just depends on what you value.
Ok? Some places it snows and some places it’s hot. Are we just describing things now?
Some places you can commute with transit and some places you cannot. The original thread was making the statement that you could not commute in the US without a car.
Which is true, for some places in the us. And some it is.
What if you work in Denver and live in Firestone?
Obviously there are already public transit offerings in urban areas
I would move to somewhere closer? Even when I regularly drove I would move, take a different job, etc instead of dealing with a long commute. To me it’s just not worth it.
You say obviously but the original thread was started by someone who made a blanket statement about the US. There are millions of people in the US who commute without a car. I was curious and looked up some data: https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST1Y2018.S0801?q=S0801:+COMMUTING+CHARACTERISTICS+BY+SEX&hidePreview=true
- 85.3% commute by car
- 9.3% commute by other means
- the rest WFH
I would even argue that some of that 85% could switch to transit with very little effort. But as the OP stated, I think there is a cultural aversion to transit in the US. So there’s some of that 85% who could use transit but choose not to.
“just move” is a privileged statement
I agree, which is why I said “Everyone’s situation is different and not everyone has the flexibility to move” below.
You can in certain areas, but certainly not all, likely most.
Only in cities. And if you ever want to explore outside the city, good luck.
Try cycling on a road with big trucks passing you at 90kph every three seconds. You will quickly learn to stay inside.
And your solution is…?
No solution, only eternal suffering.
I live in the midwest and that is fairly accurate for the most part. But when I travel to cities I favor public transportation where I can. I do know that only works becsuse I am staying in downtown areas where they haven’t killed the public transportation yet, but there are examples that it still works and could be expanded if we decided to do so.
I also think most people haven’t tried and would be pleasantly surprised if they did. Even in the US, almost half of all trips are bikable or walkable distances. It doesn’t have to replace your main commute, just some of your trips.
We’ve all met those people who get in their car to drive two blocks instead of walking, even in good weather. Cars are so dominant that there’s a lack of imagination around using anything except cars.
And it’s our selfish culture that allows that to continue to be the standard. For example in my home state Amtrak is trying to to provide inter city service, and the governor said that “they don’t want it”. The sad part is most of the citizens agree. That is the culture of selfishness.
I don’t think it can be completely blamed on culture or simply “selfishness”. There is a group of powerful lobbyists that are influencing policy:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_lobby
There are absolutely people who love their cars, and/or are assholes, but that isn’t the only reason it isn’t a priority. There is a big cost associated with any infrastructure project and the US is a relatively large country to cover. Also people from rural areas have no idea what “good” looks like in terms of mass transit.
I can agree with that. Although I do think those lobbyists are mostly successful because people are perfectly content to continue driving. I’m happy that big transit projects are being funded now. They’re always expensive, they always go over cost and over time, but when they’re finished people never think about that. Look at the chunnel
America’s love affair with cars is tied to independence.
A car means you can travel anywhere in the contiguous 48 states — vacation, visit friends and family. It also means you can look for work and get a job in a wider area than relying on just living near work. This means better pay, and access to cheaper housing. A vehicle also helps to haul goods meaning it’s easier to become an independent contractor.
Except in most other countries they have access to the same amount of independence, but don’t need a car to do the same thing.
A train only takes you to so many train stops. A car can take you anywhere the roads can take you, and more of you drive around off road.
This why public transit systems generally include buses. I will concede no-one uses buses for off-roading, but I would guess 90% of Americans do not drive their car off-road more than once or twice a year total, so I fail to see why that would be particularly relevant for a mass-market appeal.
but I would guess 90% of Americans do not drive their car off-road more than once or twice a year total
But for that 1% change they do possibly think about taking their car off road they can. Therefore they need a 70000 4000 pound pickup and not a sedan.
But then it has to be asked - are things so spread out because of the car? Could things have been more convenient and close by if we didn’t rely so heavily on the car? Would shopping centers like target and Walmart choose to be 5 miles outside of town if people didn’t have cars, or would they opt to be closer to where the people are, walkable and convenient.
That’s my point, that cars have made us more independent maybe, but at the sacrifice of our own convenience and community.
It is a lot of things. Despite the majority of people living in cities the US has a very strong independence in rural settings identity that includes traveling to remote areas on our own terms. This was fueled by auto makers and supported by our remote national parks, and a huge section if the southwestern US that is mostly open roads for miles and miles.
Unfortunately this aspect, which is a fairly positive thing in rural areas, needs into the cities where they were either built or changed over time to try and replicate the open spaces in dense areas. That is primarily possible because of all the open land, and being a new country that had killed or kicked out the previous inhabitants, the cities did not have centuries of existing as dense urban centers. Instead we got suburbs as a bastardized combination of cities and rural areas.
Walmart likes to live on the edges of cities around here for land costs and tax purposes, and since they cater to rural folks who already have to drive to get there, they end up with huge parking lots and massive amounts of wasted space. They are basically the business version of the suburbs.
The only solution would be to actively plan dense cities, but it runs counter to what we are taught to want, and the intentional destruction of public transportation we used to have along with ideas that public transportation must be self funding while roads get paid by taxes means change has some massive obstacles to overcome.
“Most other countries”
Can you name even five?
Not OP but here you go:
- Japan
- South Korea
- Hong Kong
- Taiwan
- Singapore
The only reason it feels like independence is because people are trapped living on suburbs without any public transit. I have never lived on the suburbs, only in city centers with multiple alternatives to transportation (started to ride the bus alone at 10yo), but the couple of times visiting family on the suburbs I felt trapped waiting for someone who drive me anywhere.
Yep having a reliable car is one of the biggest freedoms there is. Too bad their environmental footprint is high when so many are on the roads.
eh, I disagree. a personal vehicle can (generally doesnt because traffic is a thing) provide a sense of freedom. there’s a certain romantic appeal to having your own vehicle and there’s certainly freedom in an open road - if you ignore the fact you’re roped into buying fuel and general maintenance for said vehicle. the only way I can see fear being a factor would be the “can I afford the next major expense”.
mass transit is more efficient, cant really argue against that, but it’s in no way individualized or even customizable in any way at a personal level. you also have to base your entire schedule around the bus/train and then when it doesnt show up on time (or show up at all) you’re basically fucked. a personal vehicle has none of those failings. as a matter of fact, in many places in America you’re required to own your own vehicle because the cities are few and far between… existing without owning a vehicle is akin to being stranded on a deserted island - you’re cut off from the rest of the world. most folks dont like being physically cut off from society - preventing it isnt selfishness, it’s being prepared
Well, the culture of “rugged individualism” is part of the problem.
Nobody is buying “spongy collectivism”
So brave.
I love my car and I’m not ashamed of it. It’s true, I don’t want to be on a train or in a bus with you (or any other stranger) but I don’t think fear is the right word for that. Sometimes there are people on mass transit who do seem like they might be dangerous, but usually everyone is clearly harmless and it’s still unpleasant for me to be around them.
I used to think this dislike of being physically close to other people was a human universal but apparently it isn’t. The best analogy I can come up with for someone who doesn’t share it is that people are like an annoying noise. The more people there are and the closer they are to me, the louder that noise is. Being in a crowded train or bus is like standing near an ambulance with its siren on. It’s not scary, and it’s not unbearable. I could stand next to that ambulance if I needed to, and sometimes I do. It upsets me, I can deal with being upset, but I’m willing to spend a lot of money (and to pollute the environment) in order to avoid it.
(Even if I always had the entire train or bus to myself, I would still prefer to drive because taking mass transit is usually much slower than driving. But that’s a separate issue…)
And I call that selfish.
I’m going to use the “E” word - entitlement. I feel entitled to live the way that I do, because of how important avoiding physical proximity to strangers is for me. I suspect that you consider me to be selfish because being near strangers isn’t a big deal for you, not because it is but you do it anyway (or because you make some other, equally large sacrifice).
(Plus, I’m a vegetarian so I have the reassurance that compared to me, everyone who eats meat is a monster. Since I’m pretty much a saint already, I can permit myself a little bit of sin…)
People don’t want to be around others (the fear aspect), so they drive their own bubble around.
You say this like it’s a bad thing. It doesn’t have to be fear, it can just be preference. There are introverts and asocial people, neurodivergent people, people with social anxiety, and any number of other reasons that they don’t have to justify to you as to why they would prefer not to be around a mass of other people. Social interaction in cities tends to be of an impersonal gesellschaft nature anyway, so it’s not like you’re missing out on a genuine social experience most of the time. It’s fine to just interact with those you personally vet and invest in.
Yeah those climate-controlled cockpits are great, ngl, especially for a long drive of hundreds of miles that would’ve taken MONTHS by most other means. But they aren’t the most ideal form of transit in all situations, and yet people - independently from whether they are behind the wheels of their vehicles or not - are so selfish that extremely often they actively prevent the construction of alternatives that would be more eco-friendly, healthier, etc. Anyway, you can’t control others only yourself, so do what you can do to be happier.
Oh, and I can add that I have seen drivers who act in a kindly manner. It can be done. i.e., it’s the driver, not the vehicle. Well, not only the vehicle anyway, though it may be a contributing factor.
It’s called people need to get to work. Governments build public transit, not individuals. Individuals vote, but progress takes time.
Eh you can be upsetti all you want about cars, truth is it’s not even a significant portion of the damage we do to the planet, it’s just the most democratized one. The freedom having a transport craft allows is insane compared to even the most robust public infrastructure and yes in a perfect world that would be entirely unnecessary but we’re /so/ far off from that goal you’d be better off focusing on something that matters within the environmental class war (The rich (corps & people)) pollute and damage the ecosystem to a far greater degree than the entirety of any transport or logistics infrastructure. Just consider all the microplastic that we’ve literally littered everywhere on the entire planet. It’s in the rain. Cars did not put plastic in your rain. A single person’s choices did not do it, nor could they prevent it.
Tldr: focus on something that matters and doesn’t negatively impact the lives and freedoms of significant amounts of people before you focus on the things that do. You’ll find mobility against the greed of a few is far easier to stir than mobility against the needs of the many.
Yes and Republicans drive the largest gas guzzling rigs they can, it’s all there. It’s all about fear and control with them, and whatever tough guy appearance they can salvage while being overweight with a mouthful of dip shit
I agree with fear, and offer you an additional fear that I and those around me are very familiar with:
Cars bring “reliable transportation” to our doorstep, granting us the freedom to be employed at jobs that don’t care if the bus is late or the metro had an issue…you appear at work or be penalized.
Worse is the way shifts and callouts are handled today…my shifts are in different times in different days…there is no consistency in order to be “fair” to all employees. And if someone is sick, many places require you to find someone willing to drop everything and cover, or face penalties.
I don’t live in an area with major public transit. We have roads and cars and a couple of county circular buses.
I used to know a guy who needed that bus for work. He had a disability that meant he would never be able to drive, and that bus was his only option. He was late for work more than once because the bus was late. In times of weather or holidays he would ride the route that left him unpaid at work hours too early, and/or stuck long after shift waiting for the bus. Perhaps this could have been solved with more busses, or if he could find a job that would take him closer to home, or someone to carpool with, but it didn’t work out like that and within a year he was let go. Disability protection didn’t protect him from “not having reliable transportation”, which was the excuse they gave to dodge complaints but frankly as an At-Will state they didn’t really need it. He failed to meet the job requirements by not being in control of his transport and that was enough to end his job.
Car access gave people the freedom to travel freely and meet the demands of employers also built on car culture. Now we have the “freedom” to work inconsistent hours, suddenly as needed, or leave early to cut costs as desired, and be penalized because our travel is within our control.
I need my car so I can visit my elderly mother who lives 2 hours away and frequently needs me to help her with things. There is no public transit that goes there. I’m sorry if you think that’s “selfish” 🙄
I don’t think they meant the individuals are always selfish, more that the whole culture (and thus the lack of public transport) exists because of selfishness and fear.
Also in countries which are not as reliant on cars most people still have access to a car, they just use it less often.
OP went out of their way to say people selfishly drive cars to avoid other people. Seems like they are specifically targeting individuals as the problem
The lack of transit is due to the culture of selfishness. Are you honestly taking this as a personal attack?
The lack of transit is not due to a culture. It’s due to systemic lobbying and political failing to get public works built and funded.
Where public transit is available, and properly funded, Americans use it.
People don’t want to be around others (the fear aspect), so they drive their own bubble around. In addition to that, some go out of their way to make their cars even worse to people outside of them.
That seems pretty personal to me…
And yet, I was somehow able to not take it personally despite my having similar reasons for needing a car as you.
I’m happy for you 👏
If you’re taking that personally then I would really look inwards, and ask yourself why you took that as a personal insult.
Sure, I’ll get right on that 😉
I mean now I’ll say you’re being selfish for not even trying to understand the point I’m trying to make.
Dude… Your post explicitly stated that all car owners are selfish people who only care about maintaining their personal “bubble”, and according to your own words this was based entirely on two trucks that drove past you at a bus stop. Perhaps I would have a better understanding of what you meant if you actually said what you meant instead of a blanket statement condemning every car owner in existence as a selfish asshole…
I rarely drive my car. I walk to the stores near me whenever that is an option.
You are the one who posted a personal attack and then immediately started backpedaling
Cars are horseless carriages.
The start of this was back in the 1950s based on getting out of the city where there were, oh no, black people. Yes fear, selfish, and stupid from the beginning.
