I’ve been a long time Redditor and an Apollo user for about a year. I even paid for it. The main draw for me was the lack of advertising. In the back of my head I kept thinking that it couldn’t last. Reddit is losing revenue from the lack of advertising views. It didn’t
To me, Reddit’s sky high pricing for the use of the API is intended to kill off apps like Apollo and for its users to move to the advertising filled web site or its own app, which I’ve never used.
If Huffman came out and said this was a revenue move right off would everyone be as upset as they are? Are people upset because Huffman completely mishandled the move or because they got their ad free experience turned off? If Reddit had an app the same quality as Apollo only with ads, would they be OK with it. I’ve only used Apollo so I can’t speak to the other apps.
I can’t blame Reddit for wanting to make money. It doesn’t make a profit. Investors have to keep pouring in money to keep it going. They’re going to want to see a return on their investment at some point. Usually they cash in on an IPO, but IPO’s are generally only successful if the corporation looks like it will be profitable or at least the stock price continues to go up. That’s how capitalism works.
In my case, I probably would have left regardless. I can’t stand adds in my feed. I probably wouldn’t have heard of lemmy or kbin if there hadn’t been such an uproar. So I’m glad it went the way it did.
The problem is more about Reddit not giving a fuxk to the users who have made the platform. They obviously know in advance what 3rd party apps and tools people have been using. If they are really keen on keeping the matter civil, Reddit could have granted them free or reasonable access but it prefers not to. I think this is pretty telling.
Yah, no, a big part of this from the start was to force users on to their app. They want to go public and cash out but to do that they need to consolidate control of the platform. As it stands, users being able to customize their experience and choose how they interact with the sight through an open API undermines the companies ability to manipulate users experiences to suit the interests of investors and advertisers.
Getting rid of third party apps was always one of the central goals, not an accidental casualty, it was never going to be civil with that goal in mind.
There would have been no outrage if Reddit valued its users. If they came out and said they were going to start charging (a reasonable amount) for API access but were giving developers until the end of the year to prepare no one would have batted an eye.
Most would probably migrate to the Reddit app for free. Some would just start paying to use the app of their choice and we’d have moved on.
Reddit showed their true colors which was a big f you to the free labor and free content producers of their platform.
I would’ve paid $5-$10 a month to Apollo had this all been handled professionally. Instead I’ve deleted Reddit , fired up an rss feed app and I’m also here now. There’s a handful of communities I haven’t found a suitable replacement for but I’ll live.
deleted by creator
Lemmit.online is using Reddit’s rss feeds to share the posts to the fediverse. Worth giving a look.
Check out Inoreader (plus Reeder for an A+ iPhone/Mac/iPad experience). I’ve found Inoreader to be by far the best RSS reader, and I’ve been using it for years now. It’s UI is very slick and unassuming, but has a ridiculous number of settings and preferences if you really want to dial in your experience
Feedr is nice on Android
FreshRSS is great, if you like self-hosting, and you like a web interface
If their official app and “new” reddit layout ain’t shit there won’t be so many users using paid 3rd party apps to begin with. Fix your product instead of force killing competitors.
As of 3 weeks ago, I would’ve been willing to:
- Pay for reddit premium in order to use a third party app.
- Stuck around even without a third party app, using only the old.reddit interface for as long as that was going to work with Reddit Enhancement Suite.
- Allowed ads to get through my ad blocker on Reddit.
- Kept my old comment/link history accessible on the site.
- Continue to use reddit.
Now I’m basically unwilling to do any of those things. The interviews they gave up through the first 2 days of the blackout made me pledge not to actually pay reddit any money (and I’ve paid for gold from when it was first announced, as a “charter member,” till when they decided to dramatically increase the price in exchange for a complicated “premium” offering).
And since then, the hamfisted way they’ve dealt with mods and protests are getting me to leave the site early, too, and going out of my way to delete my old comments and posts that actually added information to the site, plus deleting or otherwise breaking the URLs of my content that have been linked from anywhere on reddit (whether in a post by me or reposted by someone else).
I really don’t think that 3rd party apps were anything but collateral damage. I think his real goal is to try and capitalize off of AI training.
He clearly saw these companies using reddit data to train AI for like no money and got upset.
I call BS on that. Large-scale content scraping was already against the TOS to begin with. And you can’t kill off slow stealth scraping without also blocking search engine crawlers. Or at least not without hurting the searchability.
What I actually want is to be able to pay Reddit or Google or whoever it is a fair amount of money, say the amount they’d make by showing me a reasonable number of ads, plus a bit more. Say 10% more. In exchange for making more money from me than they would with ads, they would let me use old.reddit.com, or a third party app and not show me any ads.
I get an ad free service, Reddit gets more money than they would have before.
I figure that the amount would be easily less than $10 per year.
They would have to show something like this: at the end of each month, they tell me that I consumed so much of Reddit. They would have shown an ad every 25 posts, at $0.0005 per ad impression. So my payment for the month will be $x.
But then you’d be a premium user and in a demographic even more likely to spend money so you’d get “catered purchase opportunities” from advertisers that paid even more for your special eyes…
Hence why I pay for YouTube.
I have as blockers up the wazoo, but they provide a very solid service. I’m happy to pay to get something I value without ads.
Digital ads are a time tax on the poor and technologically illiterate.
While essentially killing off 3rd party apps is disappointing, I could’ve understood and been willing to switch to the official app and maybe even pay monthly for no ads and more features.
What made me leave is how poorly Huffman and the company treated the developers, moderators, and users.
For developers:
- Reddit went back on their word about no API cost changes this year
- Lied about making the API cost reasonable
- Gave developers very little time to adjust
- Treated developers and their apps as freeloaders instead of as a source of growth for Reddit when they didn’t even have an app yet
- Blatantly slandered Apollo’s developer
For moderators:
- Reddit treated moderators as if their input didn’t matter despite providing free labor for the site
- Framed them as being power hungry for disagreeing and protesting Reddit’s decisions
For users:
- Reddit treated users as if their input didn’t matter despite Reddit being a user-generated content site
- Treated their contributions to the site as Reddit’s property, not their own
- Essentially said users are just a bunch of whiney babies who are powerless, have no willpower, and will visit the site no matter what we do
Also, even besides Huffman showing his true colors as being a total asshole, it just makes Reddit’s poor leadership SO evident. How do you become such a popular site with free content and free moderators, and still can’t make money? How do you manage to turn a great Reddit third-party app into a buggy mess of an official app? Why are you constantly prioritizing what you think users want instead of just listening to them? And now you essentially just told all of us: “fuck you, I own you and your content, and I am entitled to to make money off of you.”
And to pile on top, Reddit has been around since 2005. Why is there a SUDDEN and sloppy push towards profitability? It’s like someone clued them in just recently that an IPO means you’ll have to publicly show profit/loss. The way they’ve gone about it suddenly and sloppily doesn’t scream long term plan, but instead a crash change.
If I put on my tinfoil hat, I think Reddit might have a long-term plan here.
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Hike up the API price to a point where 3P apps like Apollo will have to shut down, making them worthless, after so much was invested in them
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Get users upset with the lack of features on the official app
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Make the 3P app developers look like bad guys
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Wait a month or so
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Publicly offer to buy a popular, and now worthless, 3P app ^for way too little money^, in order to use the features for the official app
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Point out that the 3P dev is a monster if they don’t sell, since it would help users so much, and Reddit is a Community, after all
they hurt themselves here though because Apollo’s dev gave them the buyout option and they said he was trying to extort them. I doubt any of the app developers would be too keen on this now without covering their ass to pretty extreme extents
Large corporations regularly buy up small firms to get their product. You may be less tin foil hatty than you think on that one.
From a game theory of greedy agents point of view, what is the number value of a worthless app? As in, if Reddit offered to buy Apollo for $1 right now, what greedy reason would there be to refuse?
“How can I trust you to even give me the $1 if you resort to slandering my character?”
They couldnt do this because apollo dev already offered to sell apollo for 10m, half the cost it would have costed them for continued api usage.
The precedent is already there to buy one and reddit missed it.
Didn’t they buy alien blue before that?
It was the most popular, before Apollo even existed I think.
They bought that, turned it to shit despite it starting from a beloved, yet now unrecognizable mess. Even if they bought Apollo, RIF, Relay, Sync and Baconreader tomorrow, their goal with the site conflicts with what people enjoy about using it and anything they do will be shittier and shittier.
People would always flock to another community focused app as long as that’s a possibility, so they decided to nuke the whole concept.If you are to believe that Reddit is setting the API pricing as high as proposed to eliminate 3rd party apps, rather than to recoup costs of allowing their existence (which I wouldn’t put it past them to lie like that to make it sound more palletteable), then it’s reasonable to believe Apollo’s existence doesn’t cost them 20M$. In fact I’d be surprised if it even costs them the 10M$ figure because Reddit’s reaction implies a number that high must be extortion.
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Excellently said! Can I nominate you to represent me in the fediverse?
Didn’t reddit used to be profitable? I think we should start by asking what decisions they made that reduced their profitability. Is it the video player that nobody asked for? Deciding to self-host images? Developing an app that nobody wants to use? It seems to me like they put themselves in this position.
I would be happy to pay a fair price to remove ads and gain access to 3rd party apps. They should just bake that into the Reddit Gold perks.
I think it is within the company’s right to revenue increasing opportunities. That said I view the slandering of the Apollo creator as the turning point. It was very poor taste and their communication around this has been horrendous. It kick started the migration to the fediverse and a critical mass has adopted it. So now there is no good reason to go back to Reddit even if they reverse their decisions. Heck, had there been a different stimulant to fediverse adoption without any missteps from Reddit, I would still have transitioned my usage to a system where the users are more in control.
No one really has an issue with Reddit charging for API access. It’s the insane amount they’re asking for, the small window of time they gave devs to require monetization, and the fact that the API would no longer provide all content that is the problem.
The stuff you mention is bad too, but it’s hardly the first issue here
I personally would be a paying subscriber to Apollo right now if Reddit had announced they were going to charge a reasonable amount of money for the API. I totally understand how a massive website like that and all the servers and storage required must have cost a fortune. Paying to avoid ads is cool with me… cutting off my access to the best way to use Reddit is not.
I haven’t heard anyone say that they’re upset because Reddit needed money. Actually I’ve heard more understanding people, they wanted Reddit to stay alive and were willing to possibly say yes to subscriptions/ad based content.
But spez completely shit the bed on the entire thing. Giving them the crazy high prices, the incredibly short deadline, hiding the pricing for those 2 months, then trying to blame it on AI, and just everything. Yes, if they had a level headed leader at the front of their corporation I could very well see myself preparing to pay a couple bucks a month to Reddit to get a good experience, they could get their “Residual Income”.
Instead he had to go all megalomaniac and demand everyone bend to his will - and I left permanently.
Yep. The headline could have been “Reddit to start charging for Premium if users want to use third party apps” and it would’ve been and gone in a day or two.
Instead, Huffman’s ego stepped in and he gave media cycle red meat with how he’s handled this. The story now is how aggressive, dishonest, and incompetent he looks. I think there’s a lot yet left to be written about a tech company that relies entirely on the health of its community treating members of that community so poorly and so openly attributing that to $$$.
The other side of it for me was I didn’t want to deal with the inevitable increase in data collection that Reddit signaled it would be doing to increase ad revenue
I used to pay for a reddit gold to support the site because Ai (naively) beloved it was a worthwhile investment in a website that connected disparate, niche communities and served as a repository of knowledge.
Don’t I look like an idiot now. Fuck u/spez
That IS what happened, in april.
What happened this month is that the API users (aka 3rd party authors) expressed their dismay at trying to work with reddit’s announced changes or getting any movement out of reddit that would allow them to continue.
I can’t blame reddit for wanting to be profitable,either. They just went about it in the worst, most confrontational way possible. They insulted the people who gave reddit all of its content, and alienated their core users.
Even if Huffman had been nicer about it, though, no amount of diplomacy would make up for the fact that their API pricing is ridiculous. Nor would it make their complete inflexibility and stubbornness more palatable. The arrogance and disrespect they’ve shown is astounding. Trying to “fix” that with pretty words, but without actually changing their plans, would be like trying to polish a turd.
I think there would still be a massive protest. The only difference would be the tone.
I used to subscribe to Reddit for the ad-free experience when I was a mobile web user. They kept making mobile web worse and worse and didn’t listen to user feedback after a point and made it so unusable I unsubscribed then found Apollo after refusing apps for years. Only been on Apollo maybe a year and now they’re destroying that. I’ve tried their app and it is a battery hog (spyware is my guess), works like crap and has too few features that I want .
There’s a few communities that I will miss over there but other than that I’m very excited for the fediverse and hope meta and bots don’t kill this platform before it gets going.
The push towards app from mobile browser was insane. In the end they even made NSFW marked posts impossible to view in web browser. WTF.
