• ChristianWS
    2·
    1 year ago

    …how do you hope to have a discussion about a design feature without discussing the visuals? The entire CSD vs SSD debate is one of UX/UI Design

    You still haven’t provided an example of CSD without a Header bar. I’m familiar with the DWD proposal, the technology used might be different, but the end result is still a Header Bar in all but name.

      • ChristianWS
        3·
        1 year ago

        …where? No seriously, I don’t see any picture, there’s only the link to DWD. I don’t use Nextcloud, but both Blender and Gimp use SSD on my system.

        And I’m quite confused by the idea of CSD looking like SSD. I know it can, however, I don’t see how that isn’t an argument for continuing to use SSD. What is the benefit of changing from SSD to CSD if the end result is to look like SSD, but have all the issues that come from using CSD?

        • Alex 🇮🇹 💛 🇷🇺@pkm.social
          1·
          1 year ago

          > What is the benefit of changing from SSD to CSD if the end result is to look like SSD, but have all the issues that come from using CSD?

          Because you can implement things like these (open this comment in Mastodon if in Lemmy you don’t see the attached images) and I don’t see what the issues are:

              • ChristianWS
                1·
                1 year ago

                …I’m not sure what I’m looking at.

                I’m not sure if you are suggesting Developers need to keep 4 different layouts in mind, or if I’m not getting the mockup.

                  • ChristianWS
                    1·
                    1 year ago

                    Alright, so here’s the issue:

                    Is the content that is allowed to leak into the title bar configurable by the user? For instance, could I only allow Tabs to be merged and keep the buttons outside the title bar?

                    If Yes: Now the dev has to figure out different ways to make the app look good for a bunch of weird configurations. For instance, in your mockup you have a three dot button on the first picture, but not on the second. If a user doesn’t allow the 3 dot button to leak into the title bar, the dev has to place the function of that button elsewhere.

                    If no: You haven’t solved anything, have you? This is just Firefox, which already exists. I can already control if Firefox uses CSD or not. What is the point here?

        • Fabian (Bocchi) 🏳️‍🌈@mstdn.social
          11·
          1 year ago

          @ChristianWS In this post: https://mstdn.social/@fabiscafe/110803301092316008
          XDG-decoration is not a core part of Wayland. So there is no guarantee that the compositor your user runs does support this. So the general improvement would at least be that you dont have to test both.¹
          On top of that the app could have more control over it’s decoration, for accessiblity stuff. Like going in a OLED/e-Ink/High-contrast mode.

          1: https://wayland.app/protocols/xdg-decoration-unstable-v1

          • ChristianWS
            2·
            1 year ago

            …you sure the pictures aren’t an argument against CSD? The wallpaper on those pics looks the same, so I’m assuming they are on the same system, but they are inconsistent with one another. Meanwhile Blender and Gimp on my system look right at home.

            …ain’t that supposed to be part of the window manager tho?

            • Fabian (Bocchi) 🏳️‍🌈@mstdn.social
              1·
              1 year ago

              @ChristianWS There are 2 consistencies: Consistent to the system and consistent to the application.
              I prefer consistent to the application, because I think the application developer is more capable to kow what the app needs then the general window decoration provider is.
              🧵️…

              • ChristianWS
                3·
                1 year ago

                …yes, I agree with that, and that is why SSDs are superior. They allow the app developer to do whatever they want inside the app, while also making sure the window frame is consistent with the rest of the system.

                It’s like a gallery wall in a home, you can mix photos and paintings with varying styles, and they would still look like they fit together if you use the same frame style on them.

                • Fabian (Bocchi) 🏳️‍🌈@mstdn.social
                  1·
                  1 year ago

                  @ChristianWS What if the application developer needs more? Hide the close button, unallow to minimize, display an exit button on fullscreen, Transform the whole app design on the fly or just to have a dark design for the application including decoration (This one hurts my eyes extremly for krita on windows 🥲️). SSD is just not flexible and might not even provide the feature set required by an application.
                  Thats why it would be nice to give them the option to implement it directly.

                  • ChristianWS
                    1·
                    1 year ago

                    I mean, disabling the close button is probably on the top 10 ways to give a PC user a panic attack. And there was a time when games had an exit button on fullscreen.

                    Also, what the hell, if Undertale can jumpscare the player while still using Windows titlebar on display then SSDs are not an issue.

              • Fabian (Bocchi) 🏳️‍🌈@mstdn.social
                1·
                1 year ago

                @ChristianWS And yes, this is only the current, very early state. Libdecor is will have theming support to have an option to look “system design native” (Blender) and for Gimp, this is experimental on an pre-release. Qt on the other hand, I assume, probably doesnt care right now, because the apps that use Qt and matter come with an own design language and own CSD anyways and everything else is probably not worth the work for basically linux wayland only.