Not saying they did or didn’t, but we’re still in fog of war territory. We know the 1200 include military personnel (who are pretty much fair game) and that there are many civilians who died to reckless IDF fire. Again, not saying they didn’t, but that the whole thing needs more investigation.
I agree that an investigation is needed but Israel has been blowing up its credibility with every lie it tells and every civilian it has murdered. Who’s going to investigate and how are they going to be able to gather evidence?
So if someone robs a shop, the police arrives and starts shooting killing several bystanders means the robber is now charged with murder and the police involvement isn’t scrutinized.
Is that really the argument you are trying to make here?
That is the argument they are making, yes. What you described is pretty much “felony murder doctrine,” blaming any death that occurs during the commission of a crime on the perpetrators. Felony murder charges have been used very effectively to justify police brutality and excessive force. If a cop kneels on your neck until you die but you were committing a crime, you murdered yourself, they say.
No I am saying Hamas committed an atrocity. There is no escaping that. Throwing in spurious figures regarding Israeli competence does not alleviate that.
There are many wrong in this. It is hard to find any rights at all from any side. Ignoring all the wrongs that have been committed by both sides will not solve the issue. Parties need to recognise that shit is being, and has been done. It should not be buried with BS in a cheap effort to dilute responsibility.
And nobody said that Hamas terror acts were not an atrocity. What was instead criticised is the fact that IDF soldiers also taking their part in killing civilians there is completely and pointedly ignored.
Which you then justify with some bullshit of how it would not have happened without the Hama’s attack in the first place.
So my point stands: If you think that soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians is to blame solely on Hamas, then police shooting civilians while trying to stop a robbing is to be blamed solely on the robber, too.
There are reports that IDF members were there, too. Shooting back amid civilians. It was probably chaotic and nobody actually knows who was shot by whom, because Israel is refusing to even investigate. In fact they also refuse to make public how many IDF members were there and how many died or how many Hamas members died. They only categorically tell us a total number, implying all dead were peaceful civilians killed by Hamas.
(I’m sorry if this appears multiple times. My lemmy client is giving me errors as I try to save this comment)
Active IDF members, or just citizens armed and trained from their days as active IDF?
You say they were shooting back from amid civilians. That’s not them participating in the massacre at all. That’s them defending the civilians. The best way to suppress gunfire coming into a group of people is to send gunfire back at the source.
Shooting a gun requires aiming, aiming requires looking, and looking requires exposing your head. This is why you can suppress gunfire by firing in its direction. The person has to choose between continuing to fire at you, and protecting their own head.
I say head because that’s basically what you need to expose in order to fire, if the rest of you is in cover. If the attackers aren’t in cover then firing back at them is even more effective because unless they stop firing and get to cover their entire body is in danger.
So firing back is totally legit behavior if that’s all they did.
Do you have any reports of IDF firing on other festival attendees?
I doubt very much that it is being ignored by the families of those involved. I highly doubt that Israel will be honest regarding the facts. But again there is a huge difference between blue on blue events and deliberate murders. Or are you suggesting Israel killed civilians deliberately also?
That is not the same as stating what Hamas has done is not really as bad as it was because X y or Z.
Israel has abused the situation without a doubt. Israel has ran apartheid policies for many years. Israel has been killing Palestinians and evicting them over a very long period. None of this excuses what Hamas did. I do not have a favourable opinion of either group tbf.
And justifies the IDF bombing their own citizens because…?
Hamas can’t be blamed for the fact that they attacked. Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law, and if that wasn’t enough Israel’s blockade of Gaza is an act of war. This means that starting 1967, and even more so since 2005, any and all military action within the bounds of international law is fair game. They can be blamed for their conduct during the attack. We know civilians were killed by Hamas, and they absolutely should be condemned for that. However, the specifics, including how many of the casualties were civilians vs IDF, how many were killed by the Hamas and how many were killed by the IDF, how many were caught up in the crossfire, those are still in fog of war territory.
Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law,
Slaughtering civilians is not acceptable under international law. The rest is just propaganda until you can produce data to back it up. Just stating that Israel committed blue on blue attacks is not really good enough. Even then the scale of the attacks by Hamas will have sent Israeli defence systems into turmoil. Getting confused and hitting a wrong target is pathetic, it is not a criminal offence if it is done in a national defence situation.
I’m not saying they’re allowed to slaughter civilians. I’m saying while we do know civilians were murdered by Hamas, and we absolutely should condemn that, we don’t know if civilians were wholesale slaughtered or not (alternatively, whether Hamas soldiers had a policy of killing unarmed civilians or not). When you include the fact that the Israeli casualties include IDF personnel and civilians the IDF killed (not accidentally, see this for more details), we need to know at least the approximate number of those people before we can assign blame. This is why I said we’re in fog of war territory.
“Hamas attacked so all casualties are their responsibility” doesn’t check out, which is why we need to wait for the details (which still haven’t come out).
They created that fog of war though. Israelis would not have made any blue on blue attacks without the attack happening. We could argue all day if Hamas is directly or indirectly to blame for some of the killings, but none of them would have happened at all without the attack. It is not as if the Israelis recognised Hamas was attacking and they used it as an opportunity to kill a few more of their own is it?
It is certainly part of the issue. Other factors you cannot ignore are the influence of Iran and Russia with the intent of adding financial pressure on the US. As well as the plan to destabilise the push Netanyahu from within Israel is under for his extreme views. This is why I say you cannot push all the blame on the Palestinians. Another side is that Hamas and Hezbollah have a very public agenda to murder all Jews in Israel. This leaves Israel with an open door too defend itself. And where there is war there is abuse.
Israel literally is trying to murder all Gazans, so whatever Hamas may or may not desire, it’s not actually relevant. Reality is the thing that counts.
Not strictly true when the far right in Israel are using the Rhetoric from Hamas and Hezbollah to give credit to their reasoning. What better reason to be a nasty bastard towards a group than knowing they also want to kill you. You cannot try to push that these groups are not your enemy. They even use this as an excuse to intimidate and thieve from the West Bank, who have a government that wants to resolve the problems and push Israel out of its land.
Not saying they did or didn’t, but we’re still in fog of war territory. We know the 1200 include military personnel (who are pretty much fair game) and that there are many civilians who died to reckless IDF fire. Again, not saying they didn’t, but that the whole thing needs more investigation.
I agree that an investigation is needed but Israel has been blowing up its credibility with every lie it tells and every civilian it has murdered. Who’s going to investigate and how are they going to be able to gather evidence?
I’m certain a lot of people who have investigated have been killed for doing so. 45 journalists lost in this 2 months of war.
Yeah, it’s real weird there’s still no breakdown of IDF casualties and civilians.
Those civilians would not have died if Hamas had not attacked civilian areas. The whole reason there were any casualties is because Hamas attacked.
So if someone robs a shop, the police arrives and starts shooting killing several bystanders means the robber is now charged with murder and the police involvement isn’t scrutinized.
Is that really the argument you are trying to make here?
That is the argument they are making, yes. What you described is pretty much “felony murder doctrine,” blaming any death that occurs during the commission of a crime on the perpetrators. Felony murder charges have been used very effectively to justify police brutality and excessive force. If a cop kneels on your neck until you die but you were committing a crime, you murdered yourself, they say.
… That is generally how it works where I live, yes.
Police causalities caused by actions intended to stop a felony are charged to the felon and they are held responsible.
Not that I fully agree with the unscrutinized part but your analogy isn’t the best.
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No I am saying Hamas committed an atrocity. There is no escaping that. Throwing in spurious figures regarding Israeli competence does not alleviate that.
There are many wrong in this. It is hard to find any rights at all from any side. Ignoring all the wrongs that have been committed by both sides will not solve the issue. Parties need to recognise that shit is being, and has been done. It should not be buried with BS in a cheap effort to dilute responsibility.
And nobody said that Hamas terror acts were not an atrocity. What was instead criticised is the fact that IDF soldiers also taking their part in killing civilians there is completely and pointedly ignored.
Which you then justify with some bullshit of how it would not have happened without the Hama’s attack in the first place.
So my point stands: If you think that soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians is to blame solely on Hamas, then police shooting civilians while trying to stop a robbing is to be blamed solely on the robber, too.
Wait what??
IDF was there killing civilians too?
There are reports that IDF members were there, too. Shooting back amid civilians. It was probably chaotic and nobody actually knows who was shot by whom, because Israel is refusing to even investigate. In fact they also refuse to make public how many IDF members were there and how many died or how many Hamas members died. They only categorically tell us a total number, implying all dead were peaceful civilians killed by Hamas.
(I’m sorry if this appears multiple times. My lemmy client is giving me errors as I try to save this comment)
Active IDF members, or just citizens armed and trained from their days as active IDF?
You say they were shooting back from amid civilians. That’s not them participating in the massacre at all. That’s them defending the civilians. The best way to suppress gunfire coming into a group of people is to send gunfire back at the source.
Shooting a gun requires aiming, aiming requires looking, and looking requires exposing your head. This is why you can suppress gunfire by firing in its direction. The person has to choose between continuing to fire at you, and protecting their own head.
I say head because that’s basically what you need to expose in order to fire, if the rest of you is in cover. If the attackers aren’t in cover then firing back at them is even more effective because unless they stop firing and get to cover their entire body is in danger.
So firing back is totally legit behavior if that’s all they did.
Do you have any reports of IDF firing on other festival attendees?
I doubt very much that it is being ignored by the families of those involved. I highly doubt that Israel will be honest regarding the facts. But again there is a huge difference between blue on blue events and deliberate murders. Or are you suggesting Israel killed civilians deliberately also?
Now do a backflip and say Hamas is responsible for the IDF doing the same actions in Palestine.
That is not the same as stating what Hamas has done is not really as bad as it was because X y or Z.
Israel has abused the situation without a doubt. Israel has ran apartheid policies for many years. Israel has been killing Palestinians and evicting them over a very long period. None of this excuses what Hamas did. I do not have a favourable opinion of either group tbf.
It’s both sides that are the problem, right?
And justifies the IDF bombing their own citizens because…?
Hamas can’t be blamed for the fact that they attacked. Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law, and if that wasn’t enough Israel’s blockade of Gaza is an act of war. This means that starting 1967, and even more so since 2005, any and all military action within the bounds of international law is fair game. They can be blamed for their conduct during the attack. We know civilians were killed by Hamas, and they absolutely should be condemned for that. However, the specifics, including how many of the casualties were civilians vs IDF, how many were killed by the Hamas and how many were killed by the IDF, how many were caught up in the crossfire, those are still in fog of war territory.
Slaughtering civilians is not acceptable under international law. The rest is just propaganda until you can produce data to back it up. Just stating that Israel committed blue on blue attacks is not really good enough. Even then the scale of the attacks by Hamas will have sent Israeli defence systems into turmoil. Getting confused and hitting a wrong target is pathetic, it is not a criminal offence if it is done in a national defence situation.
Please tell that to Israel, since they’re doing an awful lot of that.
yes I agree, and I sincerely there is an account after this.
I’m not saying they’re allowed to slaughter civilians. I’m saying while we do know civilians were murdered by Hamas, and we absolutely should condemn that, we don’t know if civilians were wholesale slaughtered or not (alternatively, whether Hamas soldiers had a policy of killing unarmed civilians or not). When you include the fact that the Israeli casualties include IDF personnel and civilians the IDF killed (not accidentally, see this for more details), we need to know at least the approximate number of those people before we can assign blame. This is why I said we’re in fog of war territory.
“Hamas attacked so all casualties are their responsibility” doesn’t check out, which is why we need to wait for the details (which still haven’t come out).
They created that fog of war though. Israelis would not have made any blue on blue attacks without the attack happening. We could argue all day if Hamas is directly or indirectly to blame for some of the killings, but none of them would have happened at all without the attack. It is not as if the Israelis recognised Hamas was attacking and they used it as an opportunity to kill a few more of their own is it?
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I have heard the stories. Governments are known for funding backfiring throughout history, but I don’t know enough about it to give an opinion.
The reason Hamas attacked is that Israel is trying to genocide palestine.
It is certainly part of the issue. Other factors you cannot ignore are the influence of Iran and Russia with the intent of adding financial pressure on the US. As well as the plan to destabilise the push Netanyahu from within Israel is under for his extreme views. This is why I say you cannot push all the blame on the Palestinians. Another side is that Hamas and Hezbollah have a very public agenda to murder all Jews in Israel. This leaves Israel with an open door too defend itself. And where there is war there is abuse.
Israel literally is trying to murder all Gazans, so whatever Hamas may or may not desire, it’s not actually relevant. Reality is the thing that counts.
Not strictly true when the far right in Israel are using the Rhetoric from Hamas and Hezbollah to give credit to their reasoning. What better reason to be a nasty bastard towards a group than knowing they also want to kill you. You cannot try to push that these groups are not your enemy. They even use this as an excuse to intimidate and thieve from the West Bank, who have a government that wants to resolve the problems and push Israel out of its land.