So if someone robs a shop, the police arrives and starts shooting killing several bystanders means the robber is now charged with murder and the police involvement isn’t scrutinized.
Is that really the argument you are trying to make here?
That is the argument they are making, yes. What you described is pretty much “felony murder doctrine,” blaming any death that occurs during the commission of a crime on the perpetrators. Felony murder charges have been used very effectively to justify police brutality and excessive force. If a cop kneels on your neck until you die but you were committing a crime, you murdered yourself, they say.
No I am saying Hamas committed an atrocity. There is no escaping that. Throwing in spurious figures regarding Israeli competence does not alleviate that.
There are many wrong in this. It is hard to find any rights at all from any side. Ignoring all the wrongs that have been committed by both sides will not solve the issue. Parties need to recognise that shit is being, and has been done. It should not be buried with BS in a cheap effort to dilute responsibility.
And nobody said that Hamas terror acts were not an atrocity. What was instead criticised is the fact that IDF soldiers also taking their part in killing civilians there is completely and pointedly ignored.
Which you then justify with some bullshit of how it would not have happened without the Hama’s attack in the first place.
So my point stands: If you think that soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians is to blame solely on Hamas, then police shooting civilians while trying to stop a robbing is to be blamed solely on the robber, too.
There are reports that IDF members were there, too. Shooting back amid civilians. It was probably chaotic and nobody actually knows who was shot by whom, because Israel is refusing to even investigate. In fact they also refuse to make public how many IDF members were there and how many died or how many Hamas members died. They only categorically tell us a total number, implying all dead were peaceful civilians killed by Hamas.
(I’m sorry if this appears multiple times. My lemmy client is giving me errors as I try to save this comment)
Active IDF members, or just citizens armed and trained from their days as active IDF?
You say they were shooting back from amid civilians. That’s not them participating in the massacre at all. That’s them defending the civilians. The best way to suppress gunfire coming into a group of people is to send gunfire back at the source.
Shooting a gun requires aiming, aiming requires looking, and looking requires exposing your head. This is why you can suppress gunfire by firing in its direction. The person has to choose between continuing to fire at you, and protecting their own head.
I say head because that’s basically what you need to expose in order to fire, if the rest of you is in cover. If the attackers aren’t in cover then firing back at them is even more effective because unless they stop firing and get to cover their entire body is in danger.
So firing back is totally legit behavior if that’s all they did.
Do you have any reports of IDF firing on other festival attendees?
I doubt very much that it is being ignored by the families of those involved. I highly doubt that Israel will be honest regarding the facts. But again there is a huge difference between blue on blue events and deliberate murders. Or are you suggesting Israel killed civilians deliberately also?
So if someone robs a shop, the police arrives and starts shooting killing several bystanders means the robber is now charged with murder and the police involvement isn’t scrutinized.
Is that really the argument you are trying to make here?
That is the argument they are making, yes. What you described is pretty much “felony murder doctrine,” blaming any death that occurs during the commission of a crime on the perpetrators. Felony murder charges have been used very effectively to justify police brutality and excessive force. If a cop kneels on your neck until you die but you were committing a crime, you murdered yourself, they say.
… That is generally how it works where I live, yes.
Police causalities caused by actions intended to stop a felony are charged to the felon and they are held responsible.
Not that I fully agree with the unscrutinized part but your analogy isn’t the best.
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No I am saying Hamas committed an atrocity. There is no escaping that. Throwing in spurious figures regarding Israeli competence does not alleviate that.
There are many wrong in this. It is hard to find any rights at all from any side. Ignoring all the wrongs that have been committed by both sides will not solve the issue. Parties need to recognise that shit is being, and has been done. It should not be buried with BS in a cheap effort to dilute responsibility.
And nobody said that Hamas terror acts were not an atrocity. What was instead criticised is the fact that IDF soldiers also taking their part in killing civilians there is completely and pointedly ignored.
Which you then justify with some bullshit of how it would not have happened without the Hama’s attack in the first place.
So my point stands: If you think that soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians is to blame solely on Hamas, then police shooting civilians while trying to stop a robbing is to be blamed solely on the robber, too.
Wait what??
IDF was there killing civilians too?
There are reports that IDF members were there, too. Shooting back amid civilians. It was probably chaotic and nobody actually knows who was shot by whom, because Israel is refusing to even investigate. In fact they also refuse to make public how many IDF members were there and how many died or how many Hamas members died. They only categorically tell us a total number, implying all dead were peaceful civilians killed by Hamas.
(I’m sorry if this appears multiple times. My lemmy client is giving me errors as I try to save this comment)
Active IDF members, or just citizens armed and trained from their days as active IDF?
You say they were shooting back from amid civilians. That’s not them participating in the massacre at all. That’s them defending the civilians. The best way to suppress gunfire coming into a group of people is to send gunfire back at the source.
Shooting a gun requires aiming, aiming requires looking, and looking requires exposing your head. This is why you can suppress gunfire by firing in its direction. The person has to choose between continuing to fire at you, and protecting their own head.
I say head because that’s basically what you need to expose in order to fire, if the rest of you is in cover. If the attackers aren’t in cover then firing back at them is even more effective because unless they stop firing and get to cover their entire body is in danger.
So firing back is totally legit behavior if that’s all they did.
Do you have any reports of IDF firing on other festival attendees?
I doubt very much that it is being ignored by the families of those involved. I highly doubt that Israel will be honest regarding the facts. But again there is a huge difference between blue on blue events and deliberate murders. Or are you suggesting Israel killed civilians deliberately also?