What is a reputable source for you? Visiting one of the compounds, which wouldn’t be possible? Izrale is livestreaming their atrocities, china has media control.
Its not about sources, its about real world effects. If there was a genocide not only would there be a lot of physical evidence and verifiable testimony, there would be thousands, and thousands of refugees flooding all over the region.
Where are the bombs in Xinjiang? Where is the famine? Where are the gofundmes for people BEGGING to be released from this hell? Where are the livestreams? The updated Google maps showing the destruction?
All of this is happening on the daily in Gaza. Not so in China.
China has 1.4 billion citizens. Xinjiang is a major tourist destination with 300 million tourists anually. Most of these people have smart phones. Do you seriously think the PRC has the magical powers to keep that many information channels under wraps? Plain impossible. Hell look at chinas borders, do you seriously think the PRC could close them down to prevent refugees from fleeing?
Furthermore, a genocide requires infrastructure and leaves evidence. In Gaza there’s plenty of mass graves, video evidence and the israeli butchers even filming themselves doing it! The infrastructure used to siege gaza can easily found, the fortified border wall, the army bases around it.
Meanwhile Xinjiang: Nothing, no graves, no facilites to keep the supposed 1 million people, no witnesses.
I’ve been to Xinjiang and spoken to Uyghurs. They either laugh at the idea of a genocide or are horrified that such a narrative exists. The huge amount of Uyghur culture being practiced and celebrated and used as a source of internal tourism for China again suggests that no genocide is taking place.
What did happen is a deradicalisation campaign almost 10 years ago. That was to prevent the spread of fundamentalist Islam in the wake if the Arab spring, which was backed by the west, resulted in the fall of Libya and it’s current woes and the rise of Isis in Syria.
The west wanted this wave of madness to spread into Xinjiang and do to it what they have done repeatedly in the Islamic world, which is use radical Islam to topple governments opposed to US hegemony. Is it any wonder that when China fights back against this the west starts up the propaganda machine to invoke accusations of genocide.
This is the exact same playbook they used against communist Afghanistan and the Soviet Union, which resulted in the Taliban.
You can go to Xinjiang today and meet Uyghur people. The fact that they live freely, and that Uyghur culture is still alive and well, is pretty ample evidence that there’s not been a genocide.
I think you can have reasonable criticisms of the reeducation program but to call it a genocide just seems factually incorrect.
This is just “communists are necromancers / mind controllers / Cthulhu delegates” kind of monster under the bed nonsense coming from Cold War propaganda era narrative and continuing on to this day. No state has 100% control over media and the reality is that after the initial push of the narrative (which primarily came from a “dude trust me” singular individual), the credibility of the claim slowly unraveled. This is in contrast to a history like, for example, US in Korea, where it started out as the US portraying it as for good and info on the US occupation’s atrocities came out over time, as people whistleblew and people investigated. Or how many people were duped into viewing the israeli colony as “it’s complicated” rather than colonialism doing what colonialism does (extermination of the natives) and only got through the bubble when raw first person information on atrocities committed by israel started coming through. In israel’s case, it’s not just that they are so brazen about it at this stage, it’s also the painstaking documentation that Palestinians have done, some of them getting targeted and martyred for daring to report on the crimes of the settlers.
There is no such equivalent evidence going on with China and claiming ultimate powers of censorship as the reason is, well… there’s a Parenti quote that comes to mind about an unfalsifiable orthodoxy. The absurdity of this kind of argument that happens in anti-communist propaganda goes something like:
The communists are evil. 2) If the evidence is clear and available, then you are evil if you don’t condemn them. 3) If the evidence is not clear and available, then it must be because the communists are totalitarian masterminds and are hiding the evidence from us. And obviously one who would support totalitarian masterminds is evil themself.
It’s one of those things like that saying, “You can’t reason someone out of a belief they haven’t reasoned themself into.” Much of anti-communist propaganda begins with an implied truism that communism must be evil and then reasons about how it is evil after the fact. By comparison, no such nonsense is necessary to criticize colonialism, for example; its crimes are well documented over hundreds of years and it depends on such narratives as saying that one people are civil and another savage, and so the savages “deserve what they get” (aka: dehumanization).
You will not find such narratives in the practice of communism because it goes out of its way to humanize and work to eliminate class and caste barriers. So its opponents simply make up atrocities committed in its name and claim that it’s a faked humanitarian goal.
In the United States, for over a hundred years, the ruling interests tirelessly propagated anticommunism among the populace, until it became more like a religious orthodoxy than a political analysis. During the Cold War, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
– Michael Parenti, Blackshirts And Reds
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Not too familiar with lemmygrab. But yeah, everything you don’t like is propaganda and anything that goes against neoliberal regime-think that suggests we should actually cut more social services, give more bombs to Israel/Ukraine/proxy(s)-of-the-year and assuage the concerns and desires of the growing right with ineffective, spineless leaders is propaganda.
Of course, China is leading the world in academic articles, EV technology, nuclear. Average citizen eats more protein and has a better diet than Americans while PPP goes every up and ours stagnates for more and more lower-class people. Developments are built to supply the growing population, not to service a F.I.R.E economy.
The neoliberal party says do not trust your eyes or ears, though. Plenty of people here been to China, an actual socialist country and have thoroughly debunked most of the talking points in person or with stuff like a certain U.N article not finding any evidence…we give evidence and proof all the time. Either it be Ukraine, or China if you actually took the time to look and read through what we have here it’s not just simply “propaganda”.
or, on the other hand, everything truly is propaganda. You just found ones you don’t like.
The ignorant and propagandized, yet somehow confident. Please note that you have not done further investigation or acknowledged the experiences of people who have been to or live in Xinjiang.
Those who do investigation and recognize the pattern of poor sourcing, US or AU gov funding of outlets, fake governments in exile, fake universities.
Where is the physical evidence of this genocide? Because I can see dead Palestinian children by the truckloads if I want to.
What is a reputable source for you? Visiting one of the compounds, which wouldn’t be possible? Izrale is livestreaming their atrocities, china has media control.
Its not about sources, its about real world effects. If there was a genocide not only would there be a lot of physical evidence and verifiable testimony, there would be thousands, and thousands of refugees flooding all over the region.
Where are the bombs in Xinjiang? Where is the famine? Where are the gofundmes for people BEGGING to be released from this hell? Where are the livestreams? The updated Google maps showing the destruction?
All of this is happening on the daily in Gaza. Not so in China.
China has 1.4 billion citizens. Xinjiang is a major tourist destination with 300 million tourists anually. Most of these people have smart phones. Do you seriously think the PRC has the magical powers to keep that many information channels under wraps? Plain impossible. Hell look at chinas borders, do you seriously think the PRC could close them down to prevent refugees from fleeing?
Furthermore, a genocide requires infrastructure and leaves evidence. In Gaza there’s plenty of mass graves, video evidence and the israeli butchers even filming themselves doing it! The infrastructure used to siege gaza can easily found, the fortified border wall, the army bases around it.
Meanwhile Xinjiang: Nothing, no graves, no facilites to keep the supposed 1 million people, no witnesses.
I’ve been to Xinjiang and spoken to Uyghurs. They either laugh at the idea of a genocide or are horrified that such a narrative exists. The huge amount of Uyghur culture being practiced and celebrated and used as a source of internal tourism for China again suggests that no genocide is taking place.
What did happen is a deradicalisation campaign almost 10 years ago. That was to prevent the spread of fundamentalist Islam in the wake if the Arab spring, which was backed by the west, resulted in the fall of Libya and it’s current woes and the rise of Isis in Syria.
The west wanted this wave of madness to spread into Xinjiang and do to it what they have done repeatedly in the Islamic world, which is use radical Islam to topple governments opposed to US hegemony. Is it any wonder that when China fights back against this the west starts up the propaganda machine to invoke accusations of genocide.
This is the exact same playbook they used against communist Afghanistan and the Soviet Union, which resulted in the Taliban.
You can go to Xinjiang today and meet Uyghur people. The fact that they live freely, and that Uyghur culture is still alive and well, is pretty ample evidence that there’s not been a genocide.
I think you can have reasonable criticisms of the reeducation program but to call it a genocide just seems factually incorrect.
deleted by creator
This is just “communists are necromancers / mind controllers / Cthulhu delegates” kind of monster under the bed nonsense coming from Cold War propaganda era narrative and continuing on to this day. No state has 100% control over media and the reality is that after the initial push of the narrative (which primarily came from a “dude trust me” singular individual), the credibility of the claim slowly unraveled. This is in contrast to a history like, for example, US in Korea, where it started out as the US portraying it as for good and info on the US occupation’s atrocities came out over time, as people whistleblew and people investigated. Or how many people were duped into viewing the israeli colony as “it’s complicated” rather than colonialism doing what colonialism does (extermination of the natives) and only got through the bubble when raw first person information on atrocities committed by israel started coming through. In israel’s case, it’s not just that they are so brazen about it at this stage, it’s also the painstaking documentation that Palestinians have done, some of them getting targeted and martyred for daring to report on the crimes of the settlers.
There is no such equivalent evidence going on with China and claiming ultimate powers of censorship as the reason is, well… there’s a Parenti quote that comes to mind about an unfalsifiable orthodoxy. The absurdity of this kind of argument that happens in anti-communist propaganda goes something like:
It’s one of those things like that saying, “You can’t reason someone out of a belief they haven’t reasoned themself into.” Much of anti-communist propaganda begins with an implied truism that communism must be evil and then reasons about how it is evil after the fact. By comparison, no such nonsense is necessary to criticize colonialism, for example; its crimes are well documented over hundreds of years and it depends on such narratives as saying that one people are civil and another savage, and so the savages “deserve what they get” (aka: dehumanization).
You will not find such narratives in the practice of communism because it goes out of its way to humanize and work to eliminate class and caste barriers. So its opponents simply make up atrocities committed in its name and claim that it’s a faked humanitarian goal.
The quote
– Michael Parenti, Blackshirts And Reds
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They have smartphones there. They MAKE smartphones there.
Soo… there isn’t any but we’re supposed to just believe it anyway? Lol incredible
Replying to myself, but I guess the responses prove the polarisation point at least.
Are you done shitting the bed yet?
Commenting on lemmygrab is practically that
Not too familiar with lemmygrab. But yeah, everything you don’t like is propaganda and anything that goes against neoliberal regime-think that suggests we should actually cut more social services, give more bombs to Israel/Ukraine/proxy(s)-of-the-year and assuage the concerns and desires of the growing right with ineffective, spineless leaders is propaganda.
Of course, China is leading the world in academic articles, EV technology, nuclear. Average citizen eats more protein and has a better diet than Americans while PPP goes every up and ours stagnates for more and more lower-class people. Developments are built to supply the growing population, not to service a F.I.R.E economy.
The neoliberal party says do not trust your eyes or ears, though. Plenty of people here been to China, an actual socialist country and have thoroughly debunked most of the talking points in person or with stuff like a certain U.N article not finding any evidence…we give evidence and proof all the time. Either it be Ukraine, or China if you actually took the time to look and read through what we have here it’s not just simply “propaganda”.
or, on the other hand, everything truly is propaganda. You just found ones you don’t like.
I have to remark that your instance is literally called reddit but with another article qualifier
I have to remark that this instance is known to be a propaganda instance thats full of trolls.
Proof?
Back to you guys for all for the questions asked. All attack, no proof
reddthat is known to be full of people who go to the supermarket to fondle the cheese
Well, who else will?
we’re called lemmygrab 'cos we’re coming for your toothbrush
Lol
The poles:
The ignorant and propagandized, yet somehow confident. Please note that you have not done further investigation or acknowledged the experiences of people who have been to or live in Xinjiang.
Those who do investigation and recognize the pattern of poor sourcing, US or AU gov funding of outlets, fake governments in exile, fake universities.
There is no polarization, everyone who looked into it agrees that there never was a genocide in the first place.
polarization is cool and good, actually
Polarisation?