jointhefediverse.net seems to be a commonly linked resource for directing people to join the Fediverse.
Curiously, it does not list Lemmy under the list of Reddit alternatives. Their GitHub README explains why.
Previous relevant discussion: https://lemmy.ml/post/78808
All valid concerns.
No, they’re not.
Doesn’t matter if you stay away from .ml.
Kind of valid, but open source and open license negates a lot of that.
You think anything else on the Fediverse is better? When you post something publicly, it’s public. Doesn’t really matter what the software does. If you don’t have End to End encryption, it’s not private.
And they are. They have delisted Lemmy as a recommendation.
It’s really bad PR. I don’t recommend Lemmy to people because of this shit.
If their servers delete content you want deleted, yes.
It’s the case for Lemmy
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2384#issuecomment-1978857727
Gotcha.
Point 1 and 2 really need to be addressed.
It would be so much better if lemmy wasn’t developed by genocide white-washing tankies.
https://piefed.social/ is catching up
Any way to migrate a self hosted lemmy instance to piefed?
Unfortunately migrating from one fediverse application to another on the same domain is actually basically impossible, due to the way ActivityPub works. It’s very unfortunate.
We built this whole place from scratch 18 months ago. We can do it again, especially when Lemmy instances would still be around and help to redirect people to the Piefed instances.
Well, in theory sure. But you always lose people during migrations, it’s inevitable. And it’s cumbersome for users. It’s not a nice experience. The fediverse has enough bad UX as it is, I’d prefer if we didn’t pile on more.
If the fediverse actually held true to the promise of easy migrations, then maybe it wouldn’t be a big deal. But unfortunately it’s still not really that easy.
I see it happening gradually.
There might be a start with another Piefed instance (e.g. Piefed.zip, managed by Lemmy.zip admins). People who really don’t want to use Lemmy would register on that instance, but would still be able to interact with the communities on Lemmy, the way Mbin and Piefed alreay do now. They start hosting a few communities onn Piefed.zip, locking other on lemmy.zip and redirecting people there.
Then over time some other admins want to give it a try. After a while a few Piefed instances make it to the top 10 most active instances, while the rest is Lemmy.
It doesn’t have to happen overnight. We have time, people are not going anywhere.
No, it’s not geared up for that. There’s a platform called sublinks where the intention is to be initially compatible enough with Lemmy that it can be a drop-in replacement, but they haven’t released anything yet.
And with their current pace, it seems likely they never will. There’s been no major development on it for months as far as I can see.
Yes, same feeling
Oh interesting, thanks for sharing!
just run both!
Python based: I was looking for that
Yeah, I don’t expect it to scale well. Certainly not as well as Rust.
In terms of incoming federation, PieFed sites are dealing with as much activity as any general Lemmy instance. It’s not happened yet, but I suppose it’s possible that problems will become apparent if the amount of local users gets over a certain size. A limit on the amount of users per instance isn’t necessarily a bad thing though (it’s cheap, and hopefully easy enough, for someone to spin up another one).
What’s going to cause problems? Python, the db, redis or other?
It uses postgres for the DB - I think that and redis are designed to operate at very large scales, so it wouldn’t be them.
My guess would be that it’s something in the interpreted nature of Python - this seems to be why a familiar dismissal of PieFed is a concern about how it will scale.
That said, this site shows that Python is the most popular language for Fediverse apps (just), the likes of Mastodon are written in another interpreted language (Ruby), and I think there are more big websites running Python (with Django or Flask) than people realise. So I don’t know, really, I’m just following other people’s lead on this. I don’t imagine that any problems would be insurmountable though: an admin could restrict the amount of signups, or if new users mean a few more donations, they could just throw money at the problem (more cycles for one server, or splitting up tasks across multiple servers).
If you consider all AI-chat sites are running on python, I guess python scales with no issue at all
deleted by creator
Have you checked how muh software do you use that is enabled by capitalism?
Linux Foundation survives on Microsoft’s financing. Firefox main source of income is Google’s money. That’s like pointing out that we breathe nitrogen. Yes, it is almost impossible to avoid capitalism because we live immersed in it as a society. But it’s not an reason to stop pointing it out and trying to find more ethical and sustainable alternatives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDF_Public_Access_Unix_System
wow that’s interesting :D
SDF is pretty rad.
Yee
You should ask it on lemmygrad.ml :D
I mean, it would be one way to get them stuck chasing their own tail on an endless task…
Excuse me?
To me the first one is an instance problem (ml, hexbear?), and not a lemmy problem. It has looked like they’ve been trying to separate the two as much as possible.
But the Lemmy project and specific instances are not so easily separated. From the archived mastodon thread:
So yeah, newcomers are presented with a join-lemmy site that promotes Lemmygrad and Lemmy ML, both of which appear to be run by the Lemmy devs.
That pretty much makes it a Lemmy problem.
On what basis can anyone declare one instance to be the ‘main’ one? I’ve seen a number of people claim the same thing about .world, but none of them need to be considered the ‘main’ ones. The entire motivation for the creation of the fediverse is to allow segmentation… I think people simply want to make it an issue because without these little cross-community spats things get boring.
I agree that ideally the concept of “main instances” is beside the point in a federated network. Let’s call them “flagship” or “onboarding instances” then, the initial ones set up by developers as proof of concept that usually get the most traction by way of being open for registrations the longest.
I think it’s disingenuous to classify the decision to omit Lemmy from a list of fediverse software as “a spat”, though. Bringing it up again 1½ years later probably fits the bill better.
But lemmy.ml isn’t the most active, nor does it host the most active communities
Unfortunately, .ml is a default instance and the main devs instance, what happens there reflects on all of us
Default where?
https://join-lemmy.org/
I don’t see it on that page. Going to “See all servers” lists “lemmy.ml” at a random position in the list. Looking at “Join a server” and using “Generic” or “All topics” also lists it in a random position. Am I missing something?
If you use “Most active”, it will shows up after lemm.ee and the other big instances. So not default, but would still be recommended to new joiners
Well to me that doesn’t fit the “it’s default” description.
While looking at that, I couldn’t see lemmy.world on that page. I found that join-lemmy.org now excludes instances with >30% user share in order to dampen centralisation. Which makes sense I guess.
It was made very clear from the start that .ml was not meant to be a ‘default instance’.
Too bad for all of us that it is though.
If anything is too bad, it’s .world being so prominent.
Half this comm’s activity is spreading FUD about the platform and being a gathering place for all the people developing their alternatives to huddle and advertise those.
How was it default? I’ve been here for years and in all that time, it was never default. It was one of the most popular, and the most widely shared, but that’s not the same at all.
But lemmy.ml isn’t the most active, nor does it host the most active communities
I didn’t say it was the most active. I said it was the default. Which has been proven already by many others here.
Where? the comments dismiss that statement, saying that it’s just an instance among others
https://lemmy.ca/comment/13804330
If there is anything as a default instance, it’s Lemmy.world
To me, the only solution to this is to do a hard fork. Take the code (It’s AGPL), rename it if Lemmy is trademarked, and encourage admins to use it and contributors to target it. Maybe start a non-profit or LLC while we’re at it.
Good luck finding Rust devs interested in link aggregators. That fork would probably fall behind, and people would switch back to Lemmy as they keep delivering features.
Mbin and Piefed use more popular languages and haven’t caught up yet
Instead of trying to fork, maybe we try and go the Gotosocial way and make a MVP smol version. Something that can house 10 or so users. People can spin up whatever they want.
Honestly what I wouldnt give for a reddit theme on mastodon that uses their hashtags as the communities themselves. That would be cool in my opinion.
Sublinks is doing a rewrite
To be honest, at this point forking the jointhefediverse website would probably be easier
This seems like the better idea and way easier lol.
The linked post given on the second point is a bit flimsy. It’s basically saying that if you use evidence published by a person with shitty views, you must have them too. To me, that’s absurd as claiming that referencing FBI statistics makes someone a federal agent.
What is the issue with user privacy? These do not sound like valid concerns to me.
This is all quite old drama, and the issue itself is fixed now, but at one point someone kicked off about how if you uploaded a picture to Lemmy, there was no easy way to delete it (you could delete your post, but the image would still be there at whatever URL was created for it, and it wasn’t even that easy for admins to find and remove it) - so I’m guessing that it stems from that.
Its older than that, and still ongoing. The devs doubled down on how GDPR (and user data privacy rights in general) do not matter to them
Source? I did a cursory search for “GDPR” on the GitHub issues and can’t find anything like that.
Anyway, this seems to be their more recent stance:
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/4540#issuecomment-2018920191
I dont know what you mean. If you search for GDPR (including closed tickets) in both the Lemmy and lemmy-ui repos, you’ll see lots of bugs that make running Lemmy illegal for instance admins.
Here’s one particularly egregious example
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2384#issuecomment-1978679289
Uhh… The other dev. Yeah, he’s obviously wrong.
He admitted it at the end of the ticket
That’s pretty much it
Wait, what? Can you elaborate?
See the other comment
it’s federated. It’s the only way it can work. Everything still on that ist must suffer from the same thing. Federation means handing stuff to someone else. Once that’s done, it’s out of your hands forever.
Correct but fedi is supposed to be the public forum of the future.
Social media worked the same… you handed your shit posts to faceberg or sundar the creep, do people think when they deleted their “creation” it was removed?
That cant be the issue because the site is called joinfediverse and everything it lists is federated.
Yeah, seems like it’s just how ActivityPub works / how federated networks are.
Recently came across this very interesting writeup: https://gitlab.com/spritely/ocappub/blob/master/README.org (via https://social.coop/@cwebber/113639985634239856)
No that cant be why they do not list lemmy. The other services there federate in the same way.
These concerns, and more, are why just today, during a conversation with some friends looking to get off traditional social media, I advised them to join pixelfed, peer tube, mastodon, and loops, but suggested they strictly avoid Lemmy.
The communities aren’t right for anyone who isn’t seeking something exactly like Lemmy or leftie-Reddit-lite. I don’t even really like it here all that much anymore. Not the content; the interactions… across all my accounts… even joining “nicer” spaces is not a particularly nice or pleasant experience, plus the more interested is a woman, and Lemmy is a horrible sausagefest echo chamber not at all suited to a normal average woman person who isn’t techie. I’m techie, so I’m used to the vibe, but for your average cis-woman, Lemmy is a very very bad fit.
Bring on the downvotes if you like (the echo-chamber anti-voice sentiment is part of why people shouldn’t be recommended this platform, after all) but these are legit concerns for people who may want to join, and those of us already here can and do steer people elsewhere as a result.
Far be it from me to point out this is exactly how reddit started.
The foundational promise of lemmy and the fediverse writ large is freedom from proprietary software and closed-protocols; the kind of people who are going to be interested in seeking out those types of alternatives are going to gravitate toward techy men.
It takes time for new social media sites to fan outward from their initial adopters, that’s just how it goes.
Fair points, to be honest. We can all do better.
Same honestly. I never discussed politics on Reddit, but it’s all the content that’s here. Partly why I don’t recommend it to anyone i know who uses Reddit. Most content just isn’t normie-friendly here.
It’s so depressing and aggressive, honestly. I can’t do that to my friends who don’t do that already.
Have you been on Reddit lately? It’s insanely depressing and aggressive, too. Even more so in my opinion. I used to be reddit addicted but it’s so bot infested, mean-spirited, and kind of vapid and shallow that I get bored after the first page or two. Lemmy still has a long way to go but I’ve been having more fun and interesting conversations on here.
The links from the github in case anyone wants to learn more (in order of the list):
https://web.archive.org/web/20210901023138/https://mstdn.social/@feditips/106835057054633379
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/155371/warning-lemmy-doesn-t-care-about-your-privacy-everything-is
First link is completely unviewable for me on mobile, the entire thread is a chain of posts that say “Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression” with a show more button that doesn’t work, and the original thread is gone. Could you(/someone) paste what it says? I’d try on desktop but our internet has been out since the fires started in LA
Sorry to hear
Thanks, fortunately I’m not in any evacuation zones, it’s just really bad air quality here
Entire thread, all from the same user:
Post 1
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Human rights mean a lot to me. I joined the Fediverse to make the world a nicer place. My efforts are pathetically small, but hopefully make at least a tiny difference.
I used to recommend Lemmy very strongly, thought the people who develop it were nice folks interested in making the world better too.
However, recent discussions with the developers has changed my mind completely.
I am very suspicious about their motivations now.
1/6
Post 2
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Lemmy’s developers say “we are strictly against all forms of oppression (including genocide), and dont allow anything that promotes or supports oppression” and “We definitely are very staunchly against bigotry or persecution of minorities, and are strict about banning that”.
This is difficult to fully reconcile with what actually happens on the developers’ own instance, and those they feature.
2/6
Post 3
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
The problem here isn’t Lemmy’s politics, but their attitude to threads about human rights violations.
On the face of it, the developers’ main Lemmy instance has lots of uncontroversial general interest threads, but when you start digging on controversial topics a worrying pattern emerges.
The worrying posts are very reminiscent of the way certain churches have handled priest abuse claims: denial.
3/6
Post 4
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
There’s threads denyng the oppression of Uyghur muslims (this oppression has been well documented by NGOs, for example: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/help-end-repression-uyghurs-china).
Other posts deny that North Korea is oppressive.
Meanwhile, another suggests celebrating Stalin’s birthday as he was such a great guy.
(Incidentally, I have receipts, DM me if you want to see them for yourself.)
4/6
Post 5
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
You get the picture.
These posts were on the main Lemmy instance, as featured on the official Lemmy website.
Over the past few days I have tried to engage with Lemmy about these posts in private, as I was sure it must be a misunderstanding.
However, Lemmy said that “none of the posts you linked are against our rules”, and refused to even discuss the actual issues because “this format is not conducive to political disagreements”.
5/6
Post 6
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
I deeply regret ever having publicised Lemmy. I’m really sorry.
Don’t use Lemmy.
For whatever my opinion is worth any more, I would now recommend that people cancel their donations to Lemmy, stay as far away from Lemmy as possible, and donate to another Fediverse project instead.
I was wondering whether to stay quiet, but it seemed better to speak up and say something
6/6
Post 7
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.s. I put the wrong link for Amnesty, the Uyghur report is here:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/4137/2021/ug/
Post 8
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.p.s. Someone has pointed out that lemmy.ml (the official Lemmy instance) resolves to the same IP address as lemmygrad.ml (the instance that contains the most disturbing material).
Lemmy.ml also federates with lemmygrad, and the devs advertise lemmygrad on their “join lemmy” site.
Do the Lemmy developers themselves run the lemmygrad.ml site? (Its main logo is a tank, incidentally.)
Post 9
Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.p.p.s. There was an older “reddit for the Fediverse” project called Prismo which had some working instances at one point.
Perhaps someone could resurrect it, to provide an alternative to Lemmy?
https://gitlab.com/prismosuite/prismo
Thank you!
Wait wait…what’s that last one?
This is why I’m looking forward to Sublinks launching.
Piefed is more promosing. Sublinks has been on hold for a while now
No they’re not, go back to school & relearn what FediVerse is
deleted by creator