- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
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Texas power prices soared 20,000% Wednesday evening amid another brutal heat wave.
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Spot electricity prices topped $5,000 per megawatt-hour, up more than 200 times from Wednesday morning.
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The state’s grid operator issued its second-highest energy emergency, then later said conditions returned to normal.
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Hey little buddy, how’s the independent grid working out for you?
Jesus Christ.
Texas: Big government is evil!
Also Texas: Big government, the climate change weve been denying is boiling us please save our freedom grid
I want a book that’s just passive aggressive notes signed by Jesus
"Bet it all on the Steelers huh? Bet your wife is going to be real happy about that.
-Jesus Christ"
"Oh you sure showed that group of children who’s boss yes sir.
-Jesus Christ"
Pray for Elon to help the poor
As a lib, I feel so owned.
I’m glad I live in Washington state with our cheap renewable energy.
You are kind of owned, since these red states fucking up just means that more of your tax money will go to saving these idiots from themselves through federal aid
As another fellow Washingtonian, I’m getting pretty tired of subsidizing willful stupidity.
Red states are a luxury we can’t afford anymore. They need to pull themselves up by their freedom bootstraps and start turning a profit, or the spigot turns off.
I can only vote blue so many times. If I didn’t laugh, I’d cry.
Man, red states are much different here and there. Here red state means communist state, in US it is exact opposite.
honestly it’s not willful for a lot of residents there because of gerrymandering instead of redistricting.
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But does it includes government-protected monopolies?
Never should have let the southern states back in like we did.
We should have hanged every last confederate.
It’s not too late though.
This is definitely not an unhinged comment. Not at all.
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Texas actually does better in the renewable energy front than you may expect.
A quarter of the state’s energy is produced through wind and solar. The biggest bottleneck preventing more wind adoption is the capacity of transmission lines up and the lack of energy storage.
The advantage of natural gas is that it can be dry up pretty much anywhere and isn’t dependent on weather.
The biggest problem Texas has right now regarding energy (and housing costs, and inflation, and municipal planning, and traffic, etc) is its extremely rapid population growth.
Yes, the heat wave is historic and ERCOT is awful, but even in perfect weather the grid is being stressed from the sheer number of people and businesses moving here
Don’t forget natural gas lines can freeze. Remember Ted Cruz going to Cancun? Pepperidge farm remembers.
While a lot of shitty things happened regarding ERCOT and that freeze (and ESPECIALLY the lack of response to prevent the next 2 freeze emergencies), Snovid was a perfect storm. And again a lot of the issues were from transmission problems when lines iced over and tress took out transmission lines.
We’re lucky the 2023 freeze was as short as it was, because it’s impact on the grid was almost as severe even though it was shorter and not nearly as cold. It was an ice event instead of snow, and had a much larger impact on trees and therefore transmission lines. Some people were without power for 3-4 times as long as with the 2021 storm despite it being a much milder event.
As an engineer, critical infrastructure should very much be designed with redundancy and failsafes to prevent failure from any reasonable risk. Cold weather impacting natural gas supply is reasonable risk that can have a catastrophic impact on people’s ability to heat their homes and it’s mind blowing how those failures have happened more than once in recent years. Utilities should be held to much higher standards and immediate action taken after failures to prevent the same from happening again.
Completely agree. But Snovid was a case of multiple system failures. It wasn’t just gas lines freezing,. It was increased demand, frozen equipment, inoperable windmills and solar panels, trees on transmission lines, road inaccessibility for repair crews, and informational gaps.
Ummmm they use cardboard for their new construction sheathing, new construction r value code is 30-39 compared to 49-60 for Washington.
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Texas has plenty of power. Their problem is the delivery network. Their prices surge because power can’t be delivered to everybody, not because there isn’t enough for everybody.
I need you to explain this further? The price goes up because the demand on the grid goes up, and as the price goes up, typically additional generation comes online to take advantage of higher rates. I’m not saying it’s a good system by any means, but I don’t understand what you mean saying “power can’t be delivered to everybody”
Transmission lines have maximums and the Texas power grid is a shambles.
Here’s a recent article that explains a little more: https://www.kut.org/energy-environment/2023-09-08/ercot-texas-electric-grid-congestion-at-risk-energy-emergency
I’m abreast of this specific grid situation, and there’re absolutely improvements that need to be made, and also no, it’s not “a shambles.” Yes, there was a bottleneck this time, but also everyone’s power stayed on just fine
Oh cool, so nobody died this time.
Give it a few months when they start dying of exposure. At least once a year I see stories about Texas’ power grid shitting the bed and people dying as a result.
How’s all that freedom going?
But Texas also has plenty of space and sunlight for other renewables.
They lead the nation, iirc. Not just in the space for it, but for the actual amount that’s been implemented.
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apperently not on peoples roofs though.
Especually for ACs having your own solar panels is perfect. The demand and supply are always highest at the same time.
The problem hasn’t been during the day. The supply and demand has a lag (sun comes out and its still cool and sun goes down and its still hot). The hottest part of the day has been about 6pm and then solar power starts declining before power use. That’s been when the shortages have been.
If you had the same amount of heat, you’d have more sunlight hours and thus better conditions for solar power. If you had more wind, wind power etc.
There’s no scenario anywhere in the world where the entire energy consumption and more can’t be supplied via renewable sources. All that’s missing is the political will to go against the fossil fuel industry.
You ever been east of the mountains? It’s going to be over 90 where my parents are today. It was over 100 for quite a bit this summer.
How do I upvote you twice?
Welcome to Cascadia, land of trees, salmon, and hydroelectric dams.
and while its not renewable and there’s a big question on how effectively its stored, nuclear power is sustainable.
Heard a piece of NPR about how our green grid is actually having a lot of trouble keeping up because climate change is fucking up our rainfall, and hence our hydro electric. Even if you do it right, you end up paying for the greed of everyone else.
I’m glad I live in Washington state with our cheap renewable energy.
Texas has more renewable energy production than you do. In Q1 of 2022 Washington State generated 25 Million Megawatt hours of renewal energy and Texas generated 34.
Texas is also the second biggest state and 3 times larger by land mass than Washington state.
Are you idiots Great Again yet?
hey the rest of the american grids are fine. Texas didn’t want to follow certain governemnt regulation so they made their own grid.
With blackouts. And hookers.
C/unexpectedfuturama
c/CommunitiesAsHashtags
With blackouts. And lobbysts.
I was talking directly to the women hating, book banning, brown people fearing , maga-loving, selfish ignorant racists that vote in Texas.
Love it.
I remember my parents planning to retire to Texas about 10 years ago, I told 'em “that state’s going to be unlivable b/c of climate change pretty soon, don’t buy land there”.
They’re Republicans so pish-tosh. They have spent weeks this summer essentially unable to be outside anywhere.
Retiring somewhere where you can be burned by the pavement if you fall over? That’s an interesting choice.
Mmm, pan seared grandma
Big Weather man, they’re part of the deep state that’s silencing conservative voices by stopping them from going outside.
Maybe stop electing Republican orcs and your state will improve.
I’m trying so hard… I swear, our ballot boxes should be called wishing wells to better curb my hopes…
The problem is Texas Democrats and those who’d stand against Republicans don’t vote. I don’t feel like digging out the exact numbers, but the 2022 gubernatorial race shows it best. Abbott got nearly 80% of the votes Trump did in 2020. Beto got 60% of the votes Biden did. Republicans show up, Democrats don’t. Until that changes. nothing in this state will change.
Wow, I’m so shocked that Democrat turnout is depressed in *checks notes… states that go out of their way to gerrymander so only the Republicans can win, and use authoritarian tactics and putting Yes Men in key positions, have laws like it being illegal to give water to people standing in the voting line, and in general violently repress their Democratic constituents.
Gee I wonder why those votes might be depressed! It certainly has nothing to do with a system that has already been rigged against them! /s
Being real though, that’s purposeful on the part of Republicans. They want Democrats to lose hope. Makes their job easier.
Of course, but the only way out is to push through. People need to understand that although republicans put their fingers on the scales in any way they can get away with, with enough resistance and turnout, this can absolutely be overcome. Jaded ideas about election interference, gerrymandering, etc. only create hopeless apathy and make it easier for them to retain a tight grip on power.
In fact, gerrymandering is often carefully calibrated to a particular electoral environment. It often involves creating many districts with just enough votes to be safe for the incumbent. But if that environment shifts, it can actually backfire as there are a huge number of districts with a similar level of partisan split. If you get enough votes to flip those, there can be a huge change.
While your right that the way past it is to literally push through and get the numbers up to break their margins, that’s hard to do when the system is rigged to make it so difficult to vote it might require you taking an entire day off to do it. So many people are living paycheck to paycheck that they can’t afford that, and the people with disposable income and time to do that are the old and the rich who typically vote republican. Which is the point.
True, I’m not saying it’s easy. But it’s the only way.
have laws like it being illegal to give water to people standing in the voting line
That was found unconstitutional at least.
When has the Constitution ever stopped Republicans from violating the Constitution?
Right, but the fact that people in red states have to fight that buffoonery tooth and nail every day is part of why they’re tired and feel like voting is hopeless.
You know what’s been shocking to me in my last two elections? How much fear I felt turning in my ballot that someone would attack me after. I’d rather die than lose my freedom to vote blue, but I’d rather not die…
The Governorship isn’t gerrymandered. That’s a literal turnout issue. You HAVE TO vote to not be overlorded by fascists. @
Texas is so gerrymandered that even when new maps are made anyone opposing Republicans gets annihilated by districting.
The problem is dems keep running Beto instead of making one of the Castro brothers run.
Democrats protest, Republicans vote. One of the primary lessons of high school AP Government 25 years ago.
Voter suppression is big in Texas.
Republicans in Texas still blame liberals for the grid problems for some reason.
The “some reason” is because it works.
True. They need a scapegoat so they know if they say “low wind and unexpected thermal outaged”, they know people are too stupid to realize they’re saying its NG and/or coal plants playing a large role in the shortfalls and that centralized power NG/coal/nuclear power plants also have unpredictable swings in power (sometimes a 2-3 GW on/off if a large plant shuts down). Yet you can look at the comments on ERCOT to find plenty of people blaming renewables and saying we need to build more of those power stations that failed us in the winter storm in 2021 and have be causing issues this summer as well.
Why you gotta insult orcs like that?
If only there was some kind of energy source that worked best during intense sunlight.
Solar is only half the battle though. There can often be a severe electricity shortage in the evening when solar power shuts off but temperates are still high. This issue is greatest in the late summer and fall because it’s still very hot but the sun sets earlier.
There are solutions to this issue but they are fairly early in development and sometimes expensive. California is struggling with this issue currently. We’ve installed a huge amount of battery power over the last few years which has prevented several catastrophes so far but heat continues to get more severe, increasing energy needs as we are trying to shut down the state’s remaining gas peaker plants.
Solar is only half the battle though. There can often be a severe electricity shortage in the evening when solar power shuts off but temperates are still high
That’s true of household panels (which are great for offsetting your daytime usage, which is usually your highest usage), but that is generally not true of large solar installations that heat up a huge mass of salt until it’s molten and then produce power from that source 24/7. Example: https://insideclimatenews.org/news/16012018/csp-concentrated-solar-molten-salt-storage-24-hour-renewable-energy-crescent-dunes-nevada/
TL/DR: large solar installations produce power 24/7 (yes, even when it’s dark)
Solar thermal isn’t really what we mean when we say solar power. The vast majority, even at utility scale, is PV panels just like the ones on your roof. Historically, solar thermal was too expensive and PV panels are still far cheaper.
That said, for areas like CA that may soon approach maximum solar penetration it may deserve a second look because of its more consistent energy output. It will mainly be competing with batteries, pumped hydro, and new generations of geothermal technology. All of these are new and fairly unproven at scale so we’ll have to learn as we go which is the best option for the later stages of decarbonizing the electrical grid.
Geothermals been proven since the 60s. It’s a sealed system, there’s no pollution (even if the pipe popped, it’s just water), stations can be planted next to preschools and daycares and no one would be the wiser.
If your state has mountains, geothermals prob the answer. If your state doesn’t have mountains (Kansas, Florida, Delaware), being from Washington, I don’t know how you guys can live there. Not being able to orientate by the horizon fucking weirds me out. Especially in fucking Florida. I was driving thru the Ocala “forest” and it’s all Spanish moss and saw palmettos everywhere. You can’t see more than 10ft into the forest, and that’s when I noticed you can’t see the sky thru it either. It’s just barely slivers of rays making it to the floor. I’ve never felt so claustrophobic in my life. *shudder fuck florida
I didn’t mean geothermal was entirely new but traditionally it has been limited to very specific geologic conditions which have largely already been developed. Newer technology (ironically pioneered by oil and gas drilling) has recently made many more sites possibly economical. But as with the other things I listed, these new types of geothermal plants are still somewhat unproven and expensive. I know they’re being investigated but so far very few have been built.
I wonder if they could drill down and capture the heat from the hotspot under Missouri.
Alaska, The Rockies, Yellowstone, the Sierras and the Cascades are all no brainers.
And Hawai’i for obvious reasons.
Yellowstone
No. We’re absolutely NOT poking a hole into the world ending super caldera.
I’m not familiar with the geology of Missouri but it mostly depends on how deep you need to go. The deeper the more expensive it will be to build.
I saw something recently which is the same principle as molten salt, except the medium never melts, is stable, and… iirc is pretty much just carbon. I was trying to look for a source and all I could find was the equally-encouraging news that the humble red brick has now been turned into a capacitor (with a wall of bricks being able to perform as a supercapacitor)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200811120154.htm
This is solar’s half of the battle, high energy demand during bright sunlight.
The Texas grid issues have been right after solar drops off (evening, not day) because Texas does rely on solar for a small, but necessary, part of it energy. The second half is energy storage, and Texas lacks that which is why its been having many close calls this summer and has resorted to paying cryptominers to not mine to narrowly scrape by after solar power drops off.
Texas has 3000Mw of battery storage with 10000Mw on the way.
Texas can use up to 100GW of power and was basically always over 60GW during that time of day this summer. The 3GW was used on a few days to bridge the gap, but wasn’t quite enough on its own on other days. 10GW more would have covered this summer though. Hopefully next summer isn’t worse though (seems like expectations is next year is supposed to be hotter). Population also continues to grow and electrification continues. And NG makes up the bulk of the power still. Hopefully wind and solar installations grow significantly in the next year as well.
I fail to see the problem. You cool your house down while the sun is up and even if it is still hot outside, then your house gets a bit warmer, so what? Still it is comfy inside and in the night you can open everything up to get some fresh wind in.
This is what I do, but there are still problems. Some people are at work and don’t have programmable thermostats. If you have a poorly insulated house, even if you do pre-cool in the middle of the day, by the time late evening rolls around, it can be getting quite hot again. And during extreme heat waves, the overnight temperature can remain very high. Last night I went to open my windows around 10 PM but it was still hotter outside than in my house. And yesterday wasn’t even particularly hot where I live, the high was only in the low 90’s.
okay, i didnt think it this bad. i thought it should cool down quite quickly at night because half of the state is a dessert, but i now realize most of the people life in the subtropical part.
Even in the desert it can be an issue. Phoenix had an overnight low of 97 this summer. Soon that may be commonplace.
Part of the problem is poor planning by utilities but our systems are also being tested by weather that is truly unprecedented in human history. Our grid, and our strategies for keeping cool were developed in a different climate than the one we now inhabit.
Not to mention Diablo Canyon. Last I heard, we were working on an expansion at Long Valley Geothermal station, but it won’t be ready before DCNR goes offline.
I think they’re going to postpone its closure which will be controversial but necessary to avoid burning more natural gas.
It’s 2018 and California has postponed the closure of DCNR. It’s 2020 and California has postponed the closure of DCNR. It’s 2023 and California has postponed the closure of DCNR. In the time we’ve been kicking the can down the road, we could have built a newer, better, safer nuclear power plant to replace DCNR. Instead, we keep pushing DCNR way past its intended service life, and we’re going to be shocked, shocked I tell you, when something finally cocks up.
recently learned that if we went with nuclear decades ago this whole problem wouldn’t even exist. https://freakonomics.com/podcast/nuclear-power-isnt-perfect-is-it-good-enough/
Aaahhh, the free market economy at work without limits, without government planning, regulations, or interference.
Government regulations bad! It means we can’t squeeze our customers, we can’t fuck up on an hourly basis, we can’t be dicks!
And in before the commies start… No. Bad dog! Get out with your “we need to become Communist hippie communes!” comments, please
We need to put reasonable rules and limits to a capitalist system. Regulate big companies, regulate infrastructure, tax the rich, use the money for social platforms
I’m with the commies on this one. We need to nationalize utilities like energy distribution. No reason to have a profit seeking entity in charge of necessities like electricity.
In sane parts of the US, utility companies are technically private entities, but they’re related so much they pretty much operate like government agencies.
The big difference being a drive toward profit. Nationalizing energy production and distribution would be a slam dunk for everyone except the people at the top of these energy companies and their shareholders.
Probably. But the people who cry about socialism would be technically correct for once if that happened.
Take a look at how the Georgia Public Service Commission is regulating the finances of the new nuclear reactors (Plant Vogtle 3 and 4) and then try to keep a straight face and tell me it’s working.
In all fairness, Texas has an incredibly weird, idealistic, view of the value of market forces and their government utterly fails in its job as a result.
It’s not just power lines. It’s everything. They distort their market on ideological lines and then assume that’s the best case.
Too be fair, it is the best case if you’re one of the rich assholes who owns everything and just wants to squeeze the poors.
Sure but that is not the role of government lol
Historically speaking?
Says who?
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As a former Texan this breaks my heart. Alot of innocent and less well off people will suffer due to entrenched corruption.
I moved away because of this exact kind of shit.
Where’d u go? We came up to Portland.
I moved to the PNW as well. I hate the bureaucracy, and miss the barbecue, but they can have the rest. The bureaucracy you have to tolerate because it helps maintain the balance of divided people making the best choices. Much better path than down south where the road to hell is paved with red intentions.
Idk about the bureaucracy being useful, maybe it just needs tuning. But rn Portland (or maybe it’s the county) has $10million set aside for homeless services/projects and no plan for any of it.
Exactly, they move slowly, but it’s better than the southern plan.
Philadelphia, it’s paradise.
They have an excess of energy (too much sun) but the grid is close to collapsing (too much cooling). Maybe install more solar power?
The problem is ideology. The Texas power grid is the end state of neo-liberalism taken to the extreme.
The belief that natural monopolies should be privately controlled with minimum regulations has lead to this. A power grid run for maximum short term profit with minimum investment. The grids poorly maintained, because that doesn’t make money. The grid is unfit, because implementing designs that cover the extremes is expensive. The price is excessive because the state is ideologically unwilling to intervene.
Many Texas leaders (and other Taxans) see any energy source that’s not oil and gas based as “part of the radical liberal agenda.”
Pay 1000$ electrical bill to own the libs!
Well yeah, being a manly man means being inconsiderate and destructive to the environment.
Oh, you care about nature? You want to be a steward of the Earth? Sounds gay. And gay men get beat to death and sent to hell.
Sure they do, then they get run the fuck over by the big money Capitalists who are building it anyway. Texas is #1 in renewable energy production for a reason.
Many Texas leaders (and other Taxans) see any energy source that’s not oil and gas based as “part of the radical liberal agenda.”
Solar energy is also decentralized, so people/villages can have their own source of energy and the profits won’t go to one monopoly and that can’t happen, because free market - yes - but not actual free like this.
They do, but capitalism is gonna win this one. Solar is cheap and sunshine is plentiful so it is still getting built. ERCOT is a disaster, most of it on purpose but the legislation that set it up.
Would probably be a good idea to hook up to the neighboring power grids too for emergencies… like every day in the summer is turning in to.
I work in Solar Construction and Texas is our fastest growing market right now.
Quick question, how do I get solar installed (in Texas) without getting scammed. Every company I have talked too has felt like dealing with the slimmest used car salesman.
I think you run into this problem anywhere in the country. We were recommended our solar company by our neighbor, who had a good experience. They finally finished our job, and mechanically, they did a fine job. But their interpersonal interactions were mostly bad, and my wife would vehemently not recommend them to anyone else. Seems like it’s going to be a crapshoot. Good luck
Good thing they got rid of all those pesky regulations or the poors would be using the power.
Texas is trying to attract crypto miners, I hear.
…
giggle
Crypto miners say “ok you need power so we will stop our servers” and Texas gov gives them millions of $ to thank them.
EMERGENCY!
YOU ARE IN TEXAS!
oh my God!
Oh, again?
Wasn’t the whole point in investing in oil in Texas to keep the energy prices low?
How is that working out for em?
Actually, pretty well 99.9% of the time. And if a few people die here or there in a freeze or heatwave, well they shoulda use some of those electricity savings on a generator or something.
^ How the conservatives in Texas feel about the situation
Some of you may die…
…but that’s a price I’m willing to pay?
People will soon be living in Texas no power year around when they throttle you and charge you thousands for power every month of the year because either A) ITsSS TWOooh HAaAWwTT or B) TtThEEee GGRiiIdD IIsSSnnTT Winterized. What a joke
If Texas is anything like Mississippi, you’re not allowed to live without electricity. You’ll be evicted, AKA homeless…
