In this context, the political divide isn’t just about disagreements over policy or ideology—it’s about fundamental differences in how we value and protect the rights and dignity of all individuals, regardless of their identity or background. The challenge is not just to bridge the divide through understanding and communication but to confront and dismantle harmful beliefs and practices that have real-world consequences for marginalized groups. This isn’t just a matter of disagreement; it’s a matter of justice and human rights.
As our society progresses in understanding various issues such as climate change, mental health, social science, and LGBTQ+ rights, we must adapt and evolve our perspectives based on new information and evidence. This growth is not an attack on tradition but rather a recognition that what may have once been accepted as normal can actually be harmful to certain individuals or groups.
It is crucial for everyone, regardless of political affiliation, to acknowledge the importance of recognizing and addressing harm caused by outdated beliefs or practices. Instead of viewing these changes as a threat to tradition, we should embrace the opportunity to create a more inclusive and just society. This requires a proactive approach in advocating for the rights of all individuals and continuously reevaluating our own beliefs and actions in light of new evidence and understanding.
The political divide extends beyond policy and ideology, reflecting differing values in upholding the rights and dignity of all individuals. The task at hand involves not only fostering understanding but also actively addressing harmful beliefs and practices harming marginalized groups. This issue transcends disagreement; it’s a matter of justice and human rights.
Progressives recognize that evolving understanding is crucial, as new facts emerge that challenge past beliefs. Vegans exemplify this, acknowledging the sentience of animals and their capacity for emotions. Despite industries and individuals choosing to exploit them, knowledge and awareness must drive change for a more compassionate society.
What can I say that hasn’t already been said? 
Nah, I appreciated your mini rant. I have to clarify that my comment wasn’t directed at you, I’ve just written off r/vegan as a lost cause long ago because it’s plant based capitalism central, and seeing multiple threads bending over backwards explaining how vegans could eat Impossible Burgers despite them being tested on animals (nevermind all the more reasonable people saying many vegan burgers existed long before Impossible) nailed the coffin shut for me.
r/vegan is awful in a lot of ways, and that includes their uncritical support of plant-based capitalism, but the conversation about plant-based capitalism is something I’ve thought about a lot, and it’s a bit iffy to me. Not necessarily because I see PBC as a good thing in any way, shape, or form, hell no, but because of how I think about it in relation to material conditions.
On one hand, I truthfully don’t feel a need to call out other vegans when I see them do things like consume Impossible products. However, that’s just if the “consumption” is all there is to it. r/vegan, on the other hand, does more than that; they, fitting terminology considered, soy out over it.
r/vegan is absolutely horrid in how much they’re focused on defending plant-based capitalism and the products that come with it more than they are about focusing on actual animal rights causes. However, I wouldn’t split hairs with other vegans who do consume these products while simultaneously and rightfully not seeing Impossible as some majorly ethical savior of animals.
The reason why I don’t is that the line of what counts as “plant-based capitalism” gets abstract, muddy, blurry, and overall seems more symbolic rather than material once you start raising certain questions. “Impossible” is unequivocally an example of a PBC company, but I feel like, so long as we live under capitalism, the difference between a “plant-based capitalist” product and just a “plant-based” product is often merely branding rather than something actually material.
For instance, a plant-based sandwich at a KFC is, on the surface, extremely questionable because KFC is a company that wears their carnism on their sleeve. However, even though KFC is more anti-vegan in its aesthetic, materially, going to a Walmart and buying plant-based foods there is doing the same thing in the sense of giving your money to a retailer that also sells the corpses of murdered animals and their secretions.
However, the point about animal testing is very important. Animal testing, especially for “unheard of” ingredients, is often required by the FDA to actually release a product with these ingredients. Like you said, plant-based burgers have already been made before Impossible even existed, and they didn’t even have to experiment to make their food taste incredibly “meatlike.” Impossible went ahead and did it anyway, even in instances where they didn’t have to do such testing because those times went beyond FDA regulations.
That being said, the reason why I still wouldn’t care to argue with vegans who may do something like, in passing, post a picture of them eating an Impossible burger is simply because I don’t hold companies to certain ethical standards in a sense, and in relation to the system, I view the nature of their animal testing as different than, say, the nature of a hygiene company that routinely tests on animals, even though it’s still morally repugnant. However, I would absolutely shit on people who uphold Impossible as some grand mark of progress for the animals.
Companies, whether they’re selling a PBC product or not, tend to just be inherently at least some degree of awful under capitalism and the carnistic world we live in. Most companies that sell plant-based mock products are not ethically vegan, and most plant-based things you obtain are not going to be from ethical vegans. Why? Capitalism is such a huge part of so many of our lives, but only 1% of the world, maybe even less, is vegan.
All of this in mind, I would not be comfortable eating a plant-based sandwich at a KFC, and the ethical questionability and the literal price of many plant-based capitalist products certainly has made me iffy about consuming many of them as well. I’m looking to make my own things like seitan deli slices and whatnot at home instead.
This is something I’ve thought about too, and I’ve come to the same conclusions too: the reason why I’m so annoyed at r/vegan’s love of PBC is that they actually praise companies like KFC for having vegan alternatives. No, you don’t gotta hand it to the animal slaughtering megacorporation.
Yeah, I guess it’s bad to buy stuff from a grocery store that also sells animal products, but for most people it’s also unavoidable. Buying anything from a fast food restaurant is something you can easily not do.
Yeah, it’s easy to not shop at the fast food restaurant and go to the grocery store instead, but regardless, I’m not sure if I could say there is a grand material difference between the two.
Either way, I couldn’t imagine being inside a place like KFC and smelling all the murdered birds comfortably enough to be like “one order of soy nuggies pls 🥺” at the front register. I worked at a chicken restaurant a few months after I went vegan simply due to desperation and my father kinda pushing me into it. Never again, even as a customer.
Sorry to zone in on this one point, but what is the problem with something like that? As a non-vegan, I’m guessing it’s because it still supports a massive corporation whose main business is mass-scale animal slaughter?
This was just in reference to the fact that, primarily due to government regulations, Impossible Foods as a company tested on animals to get a particular “meat-tasting” ingredient approved. This has caused controversy among vegans; as many would say since animal testing was involved, vegans should automatically neglect Impossible Foods on principle, and others are looking at it through a lens where they don’t see it as a violation of vegan principles.
Me personally? I believe the issue is more nuanced overall because, in my honest opinion, I’ve seen many on the former side overlook the fact that a significant portion of this issue is related to systemic capitalist issues. Roughly 1% or less of the world is vegan, yet a significantly larger portion of the population participates in capitalism, and that, of course, includes vegans as consumers. Animal testing is undoubtedly not vegan, but the reason why I don’t split hairs with vegans who eat Impossible products is that, if taken to its logical conclusion, you could easily classify many things that most people wouldn’t as “non-vegan” simply due to the nature of the companies that produce these things and/or government regulations that went into getting them onto the market.
The nature of Impossible products’ testing is also categorically different than that of, say, a hygiene company that routinely tests on animals. It’s not as likely that consuming Impossible products would cause a demand for more animal exploitation; in fact, you could argue that it would have a similar likelihood of doing so as buying plant-based food from any other non-vegan company would because that’s just the nature of corporations—they may pull some unethical shit down the line. There are so many corporations and capitalist entities, but there are so few genuinely principled ethical vegans.
I myself have found merit in avoiding Impossible products primarily due to cost and added wariness about ethical pitfalls that came out of this conversation, but due to the fact that this matter is more rooted in a systemic problem and therefore is ultimately more gray in the way the consumer goes about it, I find that it’s honestly the last thing that vegans should gatekeep over. With all of these systemic matters in mind, I don’t see saying “Impossible burgers are not suitable for vegans.” as unequivocal as saying, “Meat, dairy, and eggs are not suitable for vegans.” Plant-based capitalism is bad because capitalism is bad, but a lot of the criticisms of plant-based capitalism I find are rooted in the abstract and symbolism rather than anything material (see what I said about plant-based KFC sandwiches).
Based on such a materialist analysis, I don’t see a reason to have an issue with vegans who consume this, but I totally agree that companies that manufacture plant-based alternatives should not get some special praise or be seen as an incredible hallmark of veganism or anything like that. Food is food. In a sense, I don’t like to see food as a part of my veganism. When I’m enjoying food, I’m enjoying food, and that food will just so happen to be plant-based because abstaining from animal-based foods was a logical derivative of me having a vegan mindset. However, vegan activism and discussions on veganism as a philosophy do not necessarily have to do with food itself but rather animal liberation instead.
Thank you for the very thorough and well thought out reply to my silly question. I don’t have much to comment on I’m afraid, apart from adding a “I agree” or “yeah, that makes sense, I understand where you’re coming from.”
I didn’t know Impossible Foods tested on animals before seeing your previous comment, so I was curious about the whole thing, and you’ve really helped inform me about this. :)
Nah you’re good I mostly use that sub to dunk on shit takes from carnists.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention my favorite type of post: “I want to join the US military, can I be vegan there?” fucking lmao.
That post from a few weeks ago? Had me fucking rolling. She seems absolutely disconnected from reality.
Oh, I don’t actively follow that place, seems like that kind of post is more common than I thought
Ah yeah, ironically the “vegan” made a post about how to eat vegan while being in the military killing Palestinian children. Quite a few called her out on it and it even got a nice post in /r/vegancirclejerk. She got downvoted to shit because she was saying how “a girl’s gotta go to college” and other braindead bullshit.
Wait, what? How do you test a burger on an animal and why?
Read Angel’s comment below, it’s a good explanation of the situation.