It sounds like rather, you’re confusing capitalization for capitalism. You don’t need to be capitalist to have capital, you do need capital to have industry/production.

I don’t have the energy for this atm so will try to reply later (if anyone else wants to help me out go for it). But just… No, IMO (as said a bit out of it atm) this sounds incorrect.

Limited capitalization =/= capitalism, I agree (Dengism, or the NEP, etc. are examples of that). But I think we’d need to define what we mean by “capitalization” (the term which I was using since @BashfulBob@hexbear.net used it).

The definition from a quick google alone as an easy (+lazy, as said not quite up for it entirely- someone save me pls ) answer would be essentially… Accounting.

Thats understandably, not the context we were using (maybe innacurately, idk) the term “capitalization” for, given how it was first introduced into discussion (by @BashfulBob@hexbear.net ).

I was using it (and put it alongside the term in parentheses many times) as essentially- “financialization.”

I guess where I’m getting at is “financialization” is not a requirement for industrialization or production.

Also, of course, production (and thus actual value) and trade and/or the division of labor (“the actual economy”) and all can exist without capital, and predate capital. And I’d go so far as to say that capital (not just capitalism- but capital) is not a prerequisite for industrialization, though it is certainly the most efficient and viable mechanism to promote it thus far.

And even if we were to say that “all industry/production requires capital” - that does not mean that industry/production = capital. The two things are different, with the latter meant as something akin to a unit of measurement (and exchange) or the former.

As Marx said:

“Capital is dead labour, that, vampire-like, only lives by sucking living labour, and lives the more, the more labour it sucks”

While I wouldn’t claim that labor = production/industry (though it certainly has far more correlation than capital and production), I think it demonstrates my point…