Governments and large industrial and commercial organisations are overwhelmingly more responsible for climate change than individuals like you and me
Right, but those governments and commercial organizations are supported by individuals like you and me; they do not exist in a vacuum. It doesn’t take a long conversation with an average person to realize they do not want to make the necessary changes to their life (either directly, or indirectly through significant change in the system) to fix the problem.
If most people were actually in favour of strong action to make significant change, then most democratic governments would be more in favour of more significant action as well, because at the end of the day most of them just want to be elected. But even in countries with a parliamentary system and multiple parties, greens barely have any power, and people keep choosing governments that either do nothing, or just the bare minimum.
For a small example of what I mean, just look how many people go out of their way to show up on vegan/vegetarian threads to talk about how much they love meat and won’t stop eating it - despite the fact it’s one of the largest contributors to climate change. And this is on Lemmy too, which is a lot more left leaning than the average social media platform, and even more than the real world. Then add in how many people are pro-car, especially gas, or how many people are addicted consumerists and can’t stop buying things they don’t need in plastic packaging; and for some more sprinkles you can also add all the “environmentalists” who campaign in favour of shutting down nuclear plants despite the fact that a) it’s the second safest energy source b) even with nuclear, by 2026 fossil fuels will still be responsible for over 50% of energy production.
If anyone wants to be a grown up and have a grown up discussion, then they need to stop shifting blame around and acting like governments exist in a vacuum and corporations aren’t selling anything.
If Coke decided to stop producing plastic bottles then Pepsi would up their production and their profits would skyrocket; if a government had the balls to issue laws about plastic reduction that would stop them from producing them, they would almost certainly lose the next election and there might be protests and riots; but if people just stopped buying soft drinks in plastic bottles, Coke and Pepsi would both stop producing them regardless of what the government does.
If anyone wants to be a grown up and have a grown up discussion, then they need to stop shifting blame around and acting like governments exist in a vacuum and corporations aren’t selling anything.
It isn’t shifting blame to talk about the biggest contributors to the problem. I don’t understand why people always feel the need to pretend like we’re saying “hey guys, don’t take any personal responsibility. Its not our fault!”
People talk about it because what else are we supposed to do? I don’t eat meat. I don’t drive a car. I’m sure its true for a decent number of other people. But how many more concessions do individuals have to make? How will we control what other individuals do? We can’t. Clearly. Like the example you gave about the people who come to vegan threads. How am I supposed to change their minds? How are any of us? There needs to be real systemic changes that directly affect the corporations and entities responsible for this, as well as us.
Yes, people love cars. Is it because they are addicted consumerists? Yes. But also because of a concerted and incredibly successful effort on behalf of automobile and fossil fuel corporations to lobby for car based infrastructure, and to spread propaganda that would inevitably lead to cars being seen as symbols of freedom.
People consume meat and dairy by the truckloads. But, again, how many campaigns were led by the companies producing this food to overblow its health benefits? Got Milk?
Do we place all the blame on the addict and none on the dealer? Especially when the dealer has more power than anyone else on the planet?
So what do we do then? Say nothing? Don’t complain? Just hope that someday people will just decide we are right? That they will undo literal decades of brainwashing and complacency because we believe in the power of personal responsibility?
Can’t we just talk shit about the horrible disgusting shit the corporations have done and will doubtlessly continue to do, without someone assuming we just want to laze around, buy thing, and leave the problem to solve itself?
Alright, I’m only going to address your first paragraph because … THAT’S LITERALLY WHAT IS BEING DONE. Like, wtf are you talking about?
Any time a post or comment says something about personal responsibility, in comes some one getting mad and complaining, trying to shift all the blame away, just like in the comment I replied to.
Meanwhile, the opposite never happens. I’ve never seen some who talks about personal responsibility who doesn’t also agree that governments and corporations are responsible.
Me and OP were not the ones to go into posts criticizing the government and corporations, and get mad and act condescendinly while saying that that it’s all about personal responsibility and you shouldn’t blame corpos and govs. I talk plenty of shit about them, I bet so does OP; the difference is that we don’t pretend like personal choices by everyday people doesn’t play into it.
If you think saying that governments and corporations being “overwhemingly more responsible” is shifting “all” the blame away, then idk what to tell you. Because it is a factually correct statement. They have more power and control than any of us. It doesn’t mean personal choices don’t play into it, nor does it come off to me as pretending that’s the case. I don’t get the idea of seeing people rightfully complaining about our demonstrably shit leadership, and feeling the urge to claim that people are shifting blame. I really don’t get it.
When the talk is about personal responsibility and some one comes in all mad that people aren’t currently criticizing the government and corporations, implying it’s not a “grown up conversation”, then that shifting blame and trying to skirt responsibility. You don’t have to convince me the government is bad because I already agree; it’s the other people in this thread who are having a fit at OP and being condescending because of the mention of personal responsibility.
It’s not about being perfect but reducing harm where you can. Every individual action is to be responsible to yourself. As doing the right thing can inspire others to change. A raindrop can inspire the rain to fall.
It is both the responsibility of the individual and the society to change. The individual must do as much as possible depending on their situation.
These corporations only have so much power because enough people still buy their products or services but when the people use targeted boycotts and switch to more ethical alternatives they can slowly weaken the corporations over time until they’re no longer in business.
Right, but those governments and commercial organizations are supported by individuals like you and me; they do not exist in a vacuum. It doesn’t take a long conversation with an average person to realize they do not want to make the necessary changes to their life (either directly, or indirectly through significant change in the system) to fix the problem.
If most people were actually in favour of strong action to make significant change, then most democratic governments would be more in favour of more significant action as well, because at the end of the day most of them just want to be elected. But even in countries with a parliamentary system and multiple parties, greens barely have any power, and people keep choosing governments that either do nothing, or just the bare minimum.
For a small example of what I mean, just look how many people go out of their way to show up on vegan/vegetarian threads to talk about how much they love meat and won’t stop eating it - despite the fact it’s one of the largest contributors to climate change. And this is on Lemmy too, which is a lot more left leaning than the average social media platform, and even more than the real world. Then add in how many people are pro-car, especially gas, or how many people are addicted consumerists and can’t stop buying things they don’t need in plastic packaging; and for some more sprinkles you can also add all the “environmentalists” who campaign in favour of shutting down nuclear plants despite the fact that a) it’s the second safest energy source b) even with nuclear, by 2026 fossil fuels will still be responsible for over 50% of energy production.
If anyone wants to be a grown up and have a grown up discussion, then they need to stop shifting blame around and acting like governments exist in a vacuum and corporations aren’t selling anything.
If Coke decided to stop producing plastic bottles then Pepsi would up their production and their profits would skyrocket; if a government had the balls to issue laws about plastic reduction that would stop them from producing them, they would almost certainly lose the next election and there might be protests and riots; but if people just stopped buying soft drinks in plastic bottles, Coke and Pepsi would both stop producing them regardless of what the government does.
Exactly. Thank you.
It isn’t shifting blame to talk about the biggest contributors to the problem. I don’t understand why people always feel the need to pretend like we’re saying “hey guys, don’t take any personal responsibility. Its not our fault!”
People talk about it because what else are we supposed to do? I don’t eat meat. I don’t drive a car. I’m sure its true for a decent number of other people. But how many more concessions do individuals have to make? How will we control what other individuals do? We can’t. Clearly. Like the example you gave about the people who come to vegan threads. How am I supposed to change their minds? How are any of us? There needs to be real systemic changes that directly affect the corporations and entities responsible for this, as well as us.
Yes, people love cars. Is it because they are addicted consumerists? Yes. But also because of a concerted and incredibly successful effort on behalf of automobile and fossil fuel corporations to lobby for car based infrastructure, and to spread propaganda that would inevitably lead to cars being seen as symbols of freedom.
People consume meat and dairy by the truckloads. But, again, how many campaigns were led by the companies producing this food to overblow its health benefits? Got Milk?
Do we place all the blame on the addict and none on the dealer? Especially when the dealer has more power than anyone else on the planet?
So what do we do then? Say nothing? Don’t complain? Just hope that someday people will just decide we are right? That they will undo literal decades of brainwashing and complacency because we believe in the power of personal responsibility?
Can’t we just talk shit about the horrible disgusting shit the corporations have done and will doubtlessly continue to do, without someone assuming we just want to laze around, buy thing, and leave the problem to solve itself?
Alright, I’m only going to address your first paragraph because … THAT’S LITERALLY WHAT IS BEING DONE. Like, wtf are you talking about?
Any time a post or comment says something about personal responsibility, in comes some one getting mad and complaining, trying to shift all the blame away, just like in the comment I replied to.
Meanwhile, the opposite never happens. I’ve never seen some who talks about personal responsibility who doesn’t also agree that governments and corporations are responsible.
Me and OP were not the ones to go into posts criticizing the government and corporations, and get mad and act condescendinly while saying that that it’s all about personal responsibility and you shouldn’t blame corpos and govs. I talk plenty of shit about them, I bet so does OP; the difference is that we don’t pretend like personal choices by everyday people doesn’t play into it.
If you think saying that governments and corporations being “overwhemingly more responsible” is shifting “all” the blame away, then idk what to tell you. Because it is a factually correct statement. They have more power and control than any of us. It doesn’t mean personal choices don’t play into it, nor does it come off to me as pretending that’s the case. I don’t get the idea of seeing people rightfully complaining about our demonstrably shit leadership, and feeling the urge to claim that people are shifting blame. I really don’t get it.
Mate, it’s about context, time, and place.
When the talk is about personal responsibility and some one comes in all mad that people aren’t currently criticizing the government and corporations, implying it’s not a “grown up conversation”, then that shifting blame and trying to skirt responsibility. You don’t have to convince me the government is bad because I already agree; it’s the other people in this thread who are having a fit at OP and being condescending because of the mention of personal responsibility.
It’s not about being perfect but reducing harm where you can. Every individual action is to be responsible to yourself. As doing the right thing can inspire others to change. A raindrop can inspire the rain to fall.
It is both the responsibility of the individual and the society to change. The individual must do as much as possible depending on their situation.
These corporations only have so much power because enough people still buy their products or services but when the people use targeted boycotts and switch to more ethical alternatives they can slowly weaken the corporations over time until they’re no longer in business.