- cross-posted to:
- ukraine@sopuli.xyz
- cross-posted to:
- ukraine@sopuli.xyz
Ukraine attacked Moscow on Wednesday with at least 11 drones that were shot down by air defences in what Russian officials called one of the biggest drone strikes on the capital since the war in Ukraine began in February 2022.
The war, largely a grinding artillery and drone battle across the fields, forests and villages of eastern Ukraine, escalated on Aug. 6 when Ukraine sent thousands of soldiers over the border into Russia’s western Kursk region.
For months, Ukraine has also fought an increasingly damaging drone war against the refineries and airfields of Russia, the world’s second largest oil exporter, though major drone attacks on the Moscow region - with a population of over 21 million - have been rarer.
Russia’s defence ministry said its air defences destroyed a total of 45 drones over Russian territory, including 11 over the Moscow region, 23 over the border region of Bryansk, six over the Belgorod region, three over the Kaluga region and two over the Kursk region.
There are valid military targets in Moscow. However the more important part is to instill fear in the populace. People who are afraid of being killed are far more useful a tool to Ukraine than actually killing them. It’s that feeling of impending doom, that this time they might come for you. Them those scared people are a problem for the Russian government, but without pissing them off enough to override their fear.
This strategy might have only worked with the destruction of cities by nuclear weapons in Japan.
The resolve of the German population was not broken by the bombing of civilians. If they wouldn’t have hit the military production capabilities and invaded with ground forces the war would have dragged on much longer (and Germany lacked vital resources in their territory, unlike Russia).
So even if your suggestion to bomb the civilians wouldn’t be quite reprehensible by itself, it’s extremely unlikely that this would end the war on it’s own.
Just look at the numbers of soldiers Russia has lost, this didn’t seem to faze the support of the general population so far either (families and friends if those who died it who were severely injured).
So terrorism. You want to literally terrorize civilians for military gain. What is wrong with you?
Have you seen what they did to Ukraine?
It’s counter-terrorism.
You can’t let terrorists get away with their terror, the fear must be repaid 10-fold or it will never end.
Dude counter-terrorism is the countering of terrorist plots. It does not mean terrorism as retaliation.
It absolutely does, no better way to end terrorism than to make the terrorists afraid of committing acts due to the retaliation.
Lot of afghans still look up in fear when they hear a noise on a clear day.
Arguments about the utility of any given strategy do not determine the definition of the term “counter terrorism”.
I’m not sure that fire-with-fire strategy is the most effective. At least historically it seems to have mixed results. I think going after their economy makes the most sense: sanctions, refinery attacks, sabotage; hit them in the wallet, break their capacity to continue the carnage.
It works if you can actually hit the people who attacked you.
The more layers of abstraction between a populace and its government/army, the less likely “retaliation” against the populace will actually succeed as retaliation.
This is basically the problem with the “Israel/Palestine” conflict. People want to think of it as two parties in conflict but it is not. It is four parties:
That four-player nature to the game makes the traditional tit-for-tat strategy break down, which is why the conflict doesn’t end.
You’re missing the settlers and their ultranationalist allies.
They’re basically the mirror to Hamas.
I think we need to do both, there is no reason to hold back on any front.
Break the country, then we can figure out how to move forward properly.
We tried the kind and gentle approach after the ussr, which was the right thing then, but they don’t respond well, they considered it weakness.
That only leaves the other extreme.
Also the problem with terrorism and retaliation is that terrorism is a guerrilla tactic, and the attacker cannot be located.
Conflating a terrorist group with the host population that it inhabits leads to sloppy retaliation and hence escalation of the conflict.
Retaliation is the way to end a conflict, but terrorism prevents retaliation by its nature.
This is absolutely true .
Which is why the Russians were so foolish as to commit blatant terrorism while leaving their calling cards.
We made an example of Nazi Germany and imperial Japan, those lessons held. The same is needed here to imprint the lesson.
In the most technical sense, yeah it is. But since the coming use of ‘terrorism’ is to describe harmful acts that instill fear, your argument lacks any real weight. Bees are worse terrorists than I’m suggesting, because they actually will hurt you.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izium_mass_graves
That seems like a harmful act that is meant to instill fear.
I suggest the rational response is to proportionally inspire more fear in them.