- cross-posted to:
- upliftingnews@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- upliftingnews@lemmy.world
The Wisconsin English teacher, Jordan Cernek, argues in the suit that the district violated his freedom of religion and free speech in mandating the use of the students’ preferred names and pronouns.
A high school English teacher is suing a Wisconsin school district, alleging it did not renew his contract last year because he refused to use the preferred names of two transgender students.
Jordan Cernek’s federal lawsuit alleges the Argyle School District violated his constitutional and civil rights to be free of religious discrimination and to be able to express himself according to his religious beliefs when it did not renew his contract because he refused to abide by a requirement that teachers use the names or pronouns requested by students.
As an employee of the school, the only names he should be using are those registered in its official documents. Personal desires should not matter for either side.
Every teacher I ever had in public school throughout the 90s and early 00s asked students to tell them if they had a nickname or a name they preferred to be called on the first day of class. And then they would do their best to adhere to it.
Every single one. Nobody gave a shit. There were more important things going on like, I dunno, educating children?
Most of my teachers in the schools i went to never used a nickname for their students. Those that used nicknames were the exception, not the rule. And guess what happened to them. Parents complained of favouritism and the grades they gave were questioned.
Every single time. People do give a shit about the non-educating part and it’s an issue schools have to deal with when they’d rather not.
Confirmation bias. Got it
Every teacher, instructor, professor I’ve had from kindergarten through graduate school across three states and as many decades has asked every class I’ve been in if a student has a preferred name over the name they’re officially registered with. Every one made a note in their register to call them as such. Refusing to call a student by their preferred name is a new level of pettiness at best and discrimination at worst. A teacher’s job is to make their classroom a place where children feel welcome and safe. Regardless of whatever their personal views are. So, I say with all sincerity and with no irony, fuck your feelings.
Is that why you’re such a delightful and happy person?
Ninjabard exudes more joy right now than you do.
Bullshit
Thank you for the manure. It will fertilize the crops nicely.
Was this in the educational institutions of North Korea?
No, in Karensville. Why do you ask?
Heh, Karen.
Are you an annoying PTA parent that tried to ban Harry Potter? That would explain so much
Hey! Shut up! Harry Potter was an international treasure before Rowling went crazy.
But I would be an annoying PTA parent.
Are you telling me that if a kid named Timmy wants me to call him Tim, I should only be calling him Timmy? Fuck that noise.
If you call him Tim bad things could happen. It’s a slippery slope to child abuse
Edit: /s
If you’re the teacher of a classroom and it’s not part of your contract to call Timmy as Tim, then little Timmy can go legally change his name to Tim.
Do you realize how disconnected from reality you sound? Kids’ legal names aren’t as important as you think they are. Honestly, neither are adults’ legal names.
If someone comes up to you (outside of a school) and says their name is Will, do you say you’re only going to call them William? If yes, wow, you are so weird. If not, why does it matter inside of a school and not outside?
Your teachers seem to have failed you as your reading comprehension is lacking.
In school, a teacher is an employee. It’s their job. Outside of working hours, they’re not an employee. It’s their personal time. Job, personal time, very different things. If you expect them not to be this way, you’re kinda being an asshole towards them as a person.
To take the IT guy as an example. Do you expect to call them outside of their working hours to come fix your internet and call you pet names in the process? If so, wow do I have news for you!
Edit: Talk about disconnected…
A reading comprehension insult from someone who didn’t even answer my actual question?
Thank Christ you’re just working at a school and not an actual teacher.
I did answer it, you simply failed to recognize it as such.
A school is an organization with a specific purpose. A teacher is an employee of that organization working there under a contract within a set of rules. The students are the beneficiaries of the services that organization offers. The teachers obligation is to provide those services as specified in their contract. Beyond that and other than the laws of the city and country they reside in, they are not obligated to provide any other service that is requested of them.
Demanding something that is beyond their obligations and expecting them to accomplish it unconditionally is an assholeish thing to do.
Ps: You presume too much. Just stuck to the written words and refrain the imagination that flows far beyond them. It will serve you better in the long run.
My guy, your writing and communication skills clearly just suck if you need to keep clarifying with pretentious drivel. “It will serve you better in the long run,” as if you know how anything in the real world works.
Teachers who don’t respect their students’ human dignity shouldn’t get their contracts renewed. They’re not obligated to be a swollen dickhole since that service was not requested of them. You’ve simply failed to recognize that as such, I suppose.
Uh huh. So calling students by their actual name is not respecting their human dignity now.
You seem lovely as well, so I’ll explain it more clearly, because you seem to have fallen into a hole. This little thing you seem so fond of is a fun thing called entitlement. And it’s fun because it need no explanation, it’s all there in the word itself. En-title-ment. Or in other words, pretentious drivel.
You have a name and it is being used in its exact form. That is in fact respecting your dignity as a human being. Anything beyond that is s privilege, not an obligation. And anyone can choose not to provide that privilege as that is their right just as it is yours in return.
You’re not wrong though. You don’t have to like it or the person who does that and the teacher’s contract doesn’t have to be renewed if they don’t fit in. But any expectations that aren’t included in the contract can and should be challenged.
Are you LARPing being autistic? Because, as an autistic teacher of autistic students, I find your ignorant appeals to neutral logic pretty galling.
Good for you for being an autistic teacher for autistic children. I presume you were hired specifically for that purpose with the required resources given in mind.
The fact that you think a pet name and a preferred name are the same thing shows how much you understand what you’re talking about.
For both the beauty of understanding and its ugliness is that the more you think you understand something, the less you understand it.
The metaphor was bad, just take the L.
I see. You understand it perfectly then.
Yes. Phone autocorrect. Thank you.
It’s my job, as a teacher, to support my students. I do this by calling them by their preferred name if they ask.
Feel free to complain about that.
Your job as a teacher is whatever the contract asks of you. Anything you do beyond that is a choice that might not be supported by the administration of the school that employs you.
I mean, good for you for being supportive of your students. But if your school decides you shouldn’t do that and you refuse, well bye.
Well, the administration of the school in op clearly felt that the teachers religiously motivated insistence on being a dick violated their contract; so where’s that leave you lol
It leaves me at my original post. This particular teacher’s dumb reasons doesn’t change the idea in itself.
Sure the teacher was dumb, sure the institution didn’t agree. But it’s just the circumstances of this case. Can’t say things will be the same every time, when the circumstances will be different.
How I ‘legally changed’ my name:
I told everyone that knew me by my old name what my new name was.
This involved sending letters to places of business I had an account with, e.g. bank and utilities.
Do you have to do that for a nickname?
So, if Timmy says “I prefer Tim”, is that going against a ‘contract’? Doesn’t seem so.
Just because Timmy prefers Tim doesn’t mean everyone has to call him Tim. Maybe the other person prefers to call him by the given name.
It’s not up to someone else what they call me. It’s up to me.
Nah, I’m pretty sure anyone can call you whatever they like.
So the name on your birth certificate is “lath”?
On Lemmy, I have registered with that nickname and as such I expect it to be used.
Is that so hard to comprehend?
In school, the child asked to be referred to by a name, and as such they expect it to be used.
Is that so hard to comprehend?
Not if it isn’t the one they registered with.
You have a creepily excessive regard for rules. Humans are more important than rules - that’s human decency.
Yes they are. We just disagree on proportion.
Im so glad you have insight on this. You see, I get a lot of international students in my class and I’ve had to deal with this type of thing a lot. Maybe you can help me out.
Let’s say I have a polish student whose name is “Żółć”, which is somewhat difficult to pronounce in English. After a few failed attempts, he just tells me he prefers “George” because it sounds close enough, he likes that it sounds like English, and is easier for everyone to pronounce. His English-speaking friends call him George as well.
Do I…
I could really use some help with this since it happens all the time. Please let me know what you think.
Learn to pronounce their name. Duh.
OR, just bear with me…
Call them the name they’d prefer to be called because it’s easier than making a scene and nobody actually gaf.
Never give up, never surrender!
You could use more time outside, and less watching movies
They aint surrendering bro, just on the other side lmfaooo
That counts as one.
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I’d give you a picture of a mirror, but you’ll probably think it really is one.
Whiny cry baby running to the mods cause I hurt your feelings.
Do you enjoy being an embarrassment to your friends and family?
Uh no. Not that hard to call a person by the name they prefer. Don’t be a bigot.
Bigotry has nothing to do with it. The name registered is the one that should be used. If your registered name with the school is Richard, but you wanna be called Private Dick, then register it. If you can’t, then that’s another issue entirely.
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Hi, I’m a teacher.
The names I use are the ones that make the students comfortable. Trans student with parents who don’t accept it? Student is more important.
If I change your name in the school system to “Cunty McNonce” - and, obviously, I have access - would it be okay to use that name? After all, that’s the record of official documents that the school uses to confirm a name.
What you’re actually saying is that the personal desires of parents to control their children are more important than anything else. In human society, there’s generally some level of personal desire getting in the way: eliding that is a means to pretend that those who have power are more ethical than they really are.
I’m sure he would have no problem calling a, let’s just say, James David JD if that is what James David preferred. This is just bigotry for the sake of hate
I’d rather they didn’t. As an official, fraternizing individually only creates problems overall. A teacher should teach a class objectively.
However, any other extracurricular activities should be separate from regular classes and the relationship is more tight knit, so in that circumstance, nicknames wouldn’t be an issue.
Ir you don’t separate work from personal life, you’re going to have a bad time.
As a fucking educator, you should be connecting to every single student in your classroom on a personal level, or you’re unredeemably shit at your job.
Bro sounds like he was part of Hitler’s Youth
I think they might have grown up in North Korea. They have an excessive respect for arbitrary social contracts.
A good chunk of a teacher’s job is to build appropriate relationships with your students. Students don’t want to learn from someone they dislike, and you have significantly better learning outcomes when the students feel safe, accepted, and cared about. Appropriate nicknames, like Tim for Timothy, help in that relationship building. I don’t know what your position is at that school, but Wisconsin teachers are literally taught stuff like this in college so that we know how to manage a classroom with the best learning outcomes and the fewest number of behavioral disruptions. We are taught how to keep those relationships appropriate and healthy, although much of that is just common sense.
Yes, you should separate work and home life for both your own sanity and for modeling good boundaries and work-life balance. But that doesn’t mean you have to drop your decency at the door. At the end of the day, the goal is learning, and not being a douche is one of the easiest ways to get to that goal.
Extracurricular activities are an extension of these same principles, not an exception or something with a different set of standards. I think you might be mixing up appropriate relationship building with inappropriate fraternizing, and I’m concerned that you are having difficulty finding that line.
Your expectations of teachers and the resources actually given to them are so far apart from each other that you need to take a step back and actually provide them what is needed, not just your expectations of their personalized behavior in regards to how they should treat their students.
Teachers, parents and the school need to work together and give the support kids need. But what it’s actually like is that both school and parents dump on teachers with their own expectations on how students should be handled, which often contradict each other.
Teachers don’t actually have to do all of that though. Their job is to impart their knowledge of the subject they were hired for. Everything else is just extra, an option they should be allowed to refuse.
If you want them to do more, then pay them appropriately. Give them the equipment, the training and the support.
I definitely agree that there aren’t enough resources given to teachers, but the expectation of using common decency to reach the goal of educating our students is not too high of an expectation. Focus on the end goal. How you get there can vary (assuming it’s appropriate), but you are still trying to reach the goal of educating the students. If your teaching style is prohibiting people from reaching that goal, why wouldn’t you change it?
It’s nice to think that as an English teacher, I only have to worry about how well they can interpret the modern applications of the lessons in Macbeth, or whatever literature we’re studying, but in reality, teachers are teaching a whole heck of a lot more than their specific subject area. We’re simultaneously modeling how to behave appropriately, teaching how to navigate complex social situations, and mentoring students on how to achieve their goals and deal with set backs. Teachers have always worn more than one hat. It’s not only an expectation for the job; it’s an absolute requirement for success.
Should they earn more money for having to do all of that? YES! That’s why we’ve been complaining about the low pay and lack of resources for at least 40 years. The effort and skills are non-negotiable. Kids shouldn’t get a crappy education just because some politicians are using their teachers’ wages as political leverage. People go into education knowing that the pay sucks, but they actually care about other people and future generations. They don’t go into just for the paycheck, and I don’t know a single educator who wouldn’t put in some extra effort to help a student succeed.
You’re basing a lot of your opinion on the assumption that kids come to school ready to learn and healthy. The reality is that parents and home lives come in a wide variety of flavors. Some parents do exactly what you said: dump on teachers with their own expectations on how students should be handled. But others don’t get involved at all. Some don’t care about their child’s life beyond how it affects them. Some are so busy working to make ends meet that they don’t have time to be much more than an absent parent. No matter what life the student has, it’s still my job to give them a quality education, so of that means giving them a granola bar or calling Joe Suzie, then that’s what it takes.
We’re basically fighting for the same thing here: better pay, better resources, and support for teachers so that students can get a better education. The difference is that I don’t think students should get the short end of the stick for something they can’t change (i.e. low pay), whereas you’d rather a teacher not do extra because they aren’t getting paid to do extra. But my method reaches the end goal of educating students well, and yours instead basically says, “Reach the goal or don’t. I don’t really care since I did my part.”
You are right.
But that’s a choice each teacher has to have. Because just like everyone else involved, teachers are only human. Each has their own motivation for teaching and doing more than what’s needed because it’s the right thing to do simply isn’t good enough a reason to force them. Not everyone wants to be a hero.
Hi, I’m a teacher.
You’re not instructing non-reactive objects using units of learning that are produced mechanically from blocks of pure fact.
It’s an inter-personal job.
An interpersonal job doesn’t require personalized care. It helps and it’s recommended, but it’s not obligated.
And what’s wrong with being a non-creative object for about an hour or so? It helps clear and reorganize the mind.
You come across as an autistic person who masks to such extremes that you lose all contact with being human. If this is the case, please get support.
What is your government name so I don’t accidentally call you the wrong thing?
I don’t work for the government and neither am I here as an employee, so have fun with that thought for a while and see what you can learn from it.
That’s what I figured
You appear to be imagining that using a nickname will turn into sleepovers at some point.
Just invent robots to teach children. Then they can be ‘objective’ in exactly the way you prefer, as you can train them up from the facts as you see them… without you realising that your ‘objectivity’ is in fact a personal preference.
If it’s a personal preference then it’s one they aren’t allowed to make apparently.
Hi, I’m a teacher.
The names I use are the ones that make the students comfortable. Trans student with parents who don’t accept it? Student is more important.
If I change your name in the school system to “Cunty McNonce” - and, obviously, I have access - would it be okay to use that name? After all, that’s the record of official documents that the school uses to provide a name.
What you’re actually saying is that the personal desires of parents to control their children are more important than anything else. In human society, there’s generally some level of personal desire getting in the way: eliding that is a means to pretend that those who have power are more ethical than they really are.
Good for you, but that is your choice.
If you changed my name illegally, that’s how it will be treated.
What I’m saying is that legal names are legal for a reason. If you don’t like your legal name, change it. If you can’t, well, that’s a whole nother problem.
Your imagination is wild.
Can a child do that yet? If no, expecting them to do so denies them freedom of identity and expression. Abusing children used to be ‘legal’. People disagreed, even though it was ‘legal’. It was made more and more ‘illegal’. In Kohlberg’s Stages of Moral Development, I seem to be at the post-conventional stage (reasoning based on personal ethics) when responding to tasks designed to identify these stages. Where are you in those stages? Your strict adherence to legal records over human expression seems to give a clue.
Your lack of imagination is boring, and leads you to think and express yourself in a mechanical, anti-human way.
You’re all talk. If you want the laws to change then organize and elect to change them. If you can’t do that, why are you even here? All you do is bicker. “Ah! Freedom of expression” You want it and expect it, but don’t act to ensure it where it matters, which is legally.
You’re complaining the laws are corrupt. Uncorrupt them. Why are you here arguing with me when you could be out there, talking with other teachers, parents, grandparents etc and actually create an environment where my mechanical, anti-human way doesn’t actually take precedence to the kindness of your heart?
This is pathetic.
Yes it is. You like being the victim so much, you’d rather suffer in silence than to actually try.
It’s actually policy at my institution. When students have preferred names, they are recorded. Teachers are asked to us them, and if they make the child upset by not using them repeatedly they get in trouble. If the child does not want the parents to know about their name change, they are not told. This protects trans students.
You make a lot of wrong assumptions.
Well in that case, that’s the policy of your institution. You didn’t mention that in the former post so excuse my reply while lacking that piece of information. (You aren’t a very good teacher if you skip stuff like this in class and then expect your students to know it.)
If the teacher is obligated by the institution policy, then they should respect it obviously. It’s no longer a matter of preference.
This is just obnoxious trolling at this point.
You treat employees as contractually-obligated machines. You really have a dim view of human agency.
And you have a wonderful view of what it is to be human.
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Let it stay so people know what kind of person they are
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Bigotry doesn’t make an exception wether it is showcased in an official capacity/private or personal capacity. As you demonstrated with your comment.
You believe in objective morality, don’t you?
Belief and application are rarely the same. I can say I do and so can anyone else. But when it’s time to apply it, well, that’s subjective to the individual in question.
Objectively speaking, it’s better for a teacher to focus on teaching their subject and ignore all other unrelated issues. It’s not their job to cater to other people’s needs. It’s also not their job to cater to their own personal whims while working. Do the work, then go home and be themselves.
Look up special needs students, and hopefully realise that you are clearly in the wrong.
so, you are a Prager U “”“”“”““christian””“”“”“” then? Cool cool.
Oh. Is now having your nickname/preferred name used a special need?
I did not know that. Guess they should be placed in a specialized class with a trained specialist in charge then.
…
no its not, its common decency. My statement simply showcases that a teacher does not just have to teach their subject and ignore all other unrelated issues SINCE THERE ARE SPECIAL NEEDS STUDENTS.
Your common decency is only common in your region. Different regions have different ideas of what is common decency.
In some parts of the world, common decency is to give the name you expect to be used when writing it down for someone else to make use of it.
And if some students have special needs, then the teacher also needs to be hired with proper information and resources given to them by the school.
Special needs kids need an environment properly suited to their needs. Anything else would be negligence.
Yes, it can be related to special needs, and to protected characteristics as defined by the Equality Act (2010).
That’s not how inclusion in education works. It wasn’t, for me, when I was a student with special needs in the 80s and 90s. It wasn’t when I trained as a teacher. It isn’t now when I work as a teacher. There are no specialised special needs classes in my (very large) institution. There are no specialised special needs classes in the feeder institutions where students come from. There are no specialised special needs classes in the universities many of these students go to.
At most, there are organised meetings (twice a year, once a term, once a half-term, or very occasionally more often) between those students with recorded special needs and a member of Additional Learning Support. Many students with special needs only get one meeting, and then no more unless there are issues.
You seem to believe in some kind of ‘remedial class’ environment. Is that because this was your own experience?
I see you’re talking about a very entirely different problem. The lack of accomodations is not one particular teacher’s job to fix.
Your demands are pointless if you cannot provide the environment these children need. And stuffing them together with other children and a teacher that aren’t prepared to accept their awkwardness is just begging for trouble.
If there isn’t space, if there isn’t law, then make those first. As teachers and parents, you’re the bulk of the population, yet you won’t even influence the local council to provide what is needed. Instead you just tell people to play nice or else.
What does that accomplish really? Is there a replacement teacher ready? Are they informed of what is required of them? Do you support them when they are caught in a situation they can’t handle or will you just throw them aside and repeat ad nauseam until a satisfactory teacher is found? If the former or something better, then congratulations. I support you, good luck! Otherwise all this is nothing but lip service.
How a student is feeling is a related issue, because that affects learning.
Explain to me how a student can learn while experiencing the respect of not being addressed as their own identity, when they differ from their parents. It’s not a value-neutral position to say that parents are more correct than children about the identity of children: there is an assumption there about parents having control over their children’s internal mental processes, experiences, resulting personality, and direction of growth.
Then you should help the child settle their identity officially. Why go through furtive disruptions instead of clearing things out in a straightforward fashion? You’re just making trouble for everyone with all the sneaking about.