here is the link, its locked by the way beware of the quasi-fascists that are the western europeans
edit: its really easy to attract the islamophobes in this chat
What i find amusing and illustrative in this argument is replacing “draw Muhammad” with “saying the n-word” and it being the same fucking argument.
ok look i literally do not give a fuck what is offensive to your religion,
drawing a picture of some guysaying the n-word is not immoral and anyone who suggests that it is can eat my entire assBasically we’ve got a lot of americans on this site who rightfully feel guilt at kicking disadvantaged people in their own country, but fuck off about caring about the disadvantaged people in other white imperialist countries, they can suck my dick if they don’t like it.
How the hell is satirising a highly questionable religious figure the same as the n-word now? We fans of religious authority now?
If you wish to undermine religious authority that means reducing the number of religious adherents.
These divisive tactics with insults, misrepresentations, and minority oppression are not effective towards those ends.Islamophobia is playing into our enemies hands; they rule via divide and conquer.
As leftists what we should aim for is mutual understanding and cooperation.We want religious (and non-religious) people to become more accepting, reasonable, and less reactionary.
Insults only put people into a defensive position. And this only empowers religious authorities.When people publicly insult Mohamed, where do Muslims turn to for support and solidarity?
You have to be more pragmatic about this. There is no slippery slope when your position is rooted in utilitarian concerns.
If freedom of expression were meaningfully at risk then we could simply pivot our tactics.
Those who insult Islam have done nothing wrong; but those insulting Islam to hurt and marginalize Muslims within society are no better than any other bigot.Terrorist attacks in response to such expression is already systematically opposed, so what more do you want?
Mosques and Muslim communities are already under surveillance throughout Europe.Freedom of expression does not mean we have to celebrate every time somebody says something that offends others.
If anything, freedom expression used in this way and on such a scale, causing violence and social unrest, is what puts freedom of expression seriously at risk.If I thought that via Mohamed cartoons within three years we would have millions more ex-Muslims; then absolutely publish away.
But this same shit has been going on for over a decade and I don’t think it’s working.Those who insult Islam have done nothing wrong; but those insulting Islam to hurt and marginalize Muslims within society are no better than any other bigot.
this sounds like a catch-22. if anti-Muslim criticism is indistinguishable from well intentioned one then it sounds easy to just accuse everyone of being anti-muslim.
Terrorist attacks in response to such expression is already systematically opposed, so what more do you want?
i want criticism of religion to be normalized.
If I thought that via Mohamed cartoons within three years we would have millions more ex-Muslims; then absolutely publish away. But this same shit has been going on for over a decade and I don’t think it’s working.
But it is. 10 years ago you wouldn’t even hear of the concept of atheism or LGBT people, you’d never hear of people criticizing Islam at all and now you see people on TV do it. Now you see scholars scurry to prove Aisha was 18 when she had sex with Mohamed, declaring sexual harassment to be a sin and arguing maybe *don’t * kills the gays and the converts. Normalizing topics works, of course there will be resistance. Sometimes violent but ultimately it works. Dawkins gets a lot of well deserved flack but his edgelord book and common public appearances did reach here, all the way in the Arab world. His book on atheism, got translated unofficially and downloaded over 10 million times from one site.
Ah we’re calling bigotry “satire” now, that’s clever.
He’s a religious figure and the guy’s been dead for 1400 . How can anyone be possibly bigoted against that?
I’m tired of this shit. Comparing a racial slur with mild religious criticism or even pointless mockery is an extremely dumb take. Especially in a context where someone got beheaded over it
islam and race are intertwined in the west though. Non muslim arabs are considered Muslims by the general population if they don’t say otherwise. so directly antagonizing muslims is racist.
ok look i literally do not give a fuck what is offensive to your religion, drawing a picture of some guy is not immoral and anyone who suggests that it is can eat my entire ass
i dont care if you’re religious, but that apathy ends the second you start asking me to follow your dumb fucking religion’s dumb fucking rules. fuck off
i literally do not give a fuck what is offensive
eat my entire ass
fuck off
Civility at the expense of accomplishing something real is bullshit, but man, you’re not going to get very far with very many people if you’re just an outright asshole.
Do you understand how traumatic it is to grow up in an environment ruled, socially and legally, by religion? It’s fucking horrifying. And then to see people who are supposed to be supporting you calling you racist, a chud, an asshole, etc for daring to suggest that religion shouldn’t control the life of a non-religious person? That’s terrifying too. I’m lashing out because this is truly a terrible, disgusting thing that people here are thoughtlessly supporting.
religion shouldn’t control the life of a non-religious person?
yes, the evil muslims are preventing you from drawing muhammad which is something that non-religious people normally want to do on a regular basis
So if no one is preventing anyone from drawing caricatures why was showing a caricature in a class explicitly dealing with religious indoctrination punished? By death, no less.
He is from Alamaba, famous islamic state
al-Abama
Yes, except christian instead. You realize christianity and islam are almost precisely the same fucking thing, right? Muslims believe in jesus for fucks sake. Pretending they are significantly different in any meaningful way aside from that one happened to be largely the victor over recent history is incredibly ignorant.
You realize christianity and islam are almost precisely the same fucking thing, right?
Bit of an oversimplification there
Not really. They believe 99% of the same things, follow 99% of the same rules, and result in 99% of the same outcomes when they dominate society.
looks like asking to not draw Muhammad is to much for cringe zoners like you
asking me to follow religious rules is absolutely too much, yes.
so if a japanese asks you to take of your shoes when entering his home, are you gonna call him an asshole too, to you basic decency is opression, and you want anyone from the global southto call you a comrade, radlib
The difference is that if you enter a Japanese person’s house in shoes, it won’t result in a random dude getting his fucking head cut off lol.
Here’s what I don’t understand, if someone says that something is offensive in their religion I’m obviously going to respect that because I’m not an asshole. But if they say that something is a crime in their religion and the punishment is getting beheaded then I’m super not cool with that. They are imposing on me the rules of their religion, which I’m not a part of.
It’s the same way with Christianity and abortion or homosexuality. Everyone agrees that it’s not cool that Christians are imposing their morality on the rest of the world, why is it different with Islam? That’s an honest question, correct me if I’m being a lib.
What does taking your shoes off when entering someone’s home has to do with their race? Why would you keep your shoes on, unless specifically asked in the first place?
because its a respect thing (japanese tradition) just like not drawing muhammad is for muslims
thats about cleanliness not religion, you people are fucking stupid
its a traditions you dense idiot, stop being such a western chauvinist and accept not everyone country is a parasitic imperialist country based in western supremacy
literally what the fuck are you talking about you fucking fool
“take off your shoes or stay out of my house” completely valid. the reason is cleanliness. theres nothing wrong with that. similarly, “dont draw muhammad in my house or go away” thats fine too
“dont draw muhammad in your own house” is fucking absurd and it’s disgusting that you support it. its like a christian telling you not to have gay sex in your house because it’s offensive to their religion
fuck all the way off, your religion does not have power over my fucking life
Why would you ever draw Muhammad? About the only reason anyone ever does is in an attempt to deeply insult an enormous number of people. That kind of “fuck you I do what I want” mentality doesn’t garner much sympathy from me. Having a reasonable amount of respect for your fellow human beings (i.e., not doing something you would never otherwise do specifically to piss them off) is something we need more of.
Yeah, you’re free to yell the N-word at the top of your lungs in public. Yeah, if a black person decides to beat you to death for it they’re in the wrong, too. But my sympathy for you in that situation is limited because maybe you shouldn’t be an absolute piece of shit just because you technically can.
no one has ever said “don’t draw Muhammad in your own house”??? where the hell are you getting this from. nobody is asking you to not draw Muhammad in private, that’s absurd and irrelevant to the question. this whole discourse is about western reactionaries intentionally enflaming the situation by drawing Muhammad outwardly, usually in racist big-nosed depictions i might add.
