Maybe I’m missing something but how does this legitimise the claim that China has over Taiwan? Surely you could use the same line of reasoning with Israel right? Genuinely curious btw as I’ve only ever dipped my toe into the history of this stuff. I feel like I’d like to look at any data gathered about how people living in Taiwan feel about this.
Oh boy okay so I asked this in another life and the history behind Taiwan is kinda fucking mad and does arguably justify it being a part of China imo because it was previously and only isn’t now cos of nationalists.
I’m sure someone more well read than me can fill in the blanks but my understand is as follows:
China kick the British out
original guy dies and his two top guys are left
Mao (communist) and Chiang Kai-shek (nationalist)
they had a big barney over their ideological differences and the fash lost fleeing to Taiwan while Mao rebuilt the Chinese mainland.
while in Taiwan Chiang Kai-Shek genocides a fair few of the native Taiwanese people in a bloody regime to solidify his power and Taiwan as (in his mind) the real China despite native Taiwanese people considering themselves part of China already.
even now the inheritors of change kai sheks legacy still have nepotism babies and fascists in government but also a more left leaning Liberal lot who want to apologise for the crimes of the past and move forward (I think led by the lead singer of the Taiwanese melo death metal band Cthonic who is a sitting MP or something lmao)
so Taiwan is kinda torn between their nationalistic past and the new “Progressive” camp that want to just move on and stop the hostilities kinda I’m not sure, what I’ve seen is so inconsistent.
So yeah I dunno but that history informed the UN decision and only now that the west have realised they can really use this to benefit themselves have they started pushing the free Taiwan angle hard.
Take from that what you will as I learnt all this second hand.
One big thing to keep in mind though is that the DPP, the people who want to declare independence and claim that Taiwan isn’t China, are all simps for Japanese colonialism.
I feel that way a lot being in a community with them lol. They are all extremely helpful and ready to explain and give links to info. It helps us all learn when people ask questions. to all the helpful comrades and all those asking good faith questions
Yeah this is really beautiful and enlightening, it’s hard to deprogram yourself from this shit as you’re spoon fed so much stuff from the get-go it’s hard to reassess what’s different forms of wester kompromat.
Mostly correct but you got mixed up toward the end. The KMT, the old nationalist party, is actually the moderate and reasonable party now that wants a status quo to continue (One China policy but autonomy) and want to increase business relations with the mainland. The new Liberal party don’t want to just “move forward” they want to become a US military base and declare independence. They are western stooges and imperialists. The KMT is ironically the better option
The best option is of course a slow and peaceful economic and diplomatic merge over time, but for this to happen America has to seriously fuck off and be dealt with because they do everything in their power to prevent that. They will install suicidal fascists with nukes before they allow it. For that reason, China might have to make a sudden and aggressive move and I will support them when/if they do.
Yeah when you speak to libs and suggest a solution to a problem its always “oh really and how’s that supposed to work in the real world?” and like 99% of the time it’s literally just America stopping it. Every fucking time.
If you ever want to know more, I know @robinn2@hexbear.net has compiled several great resources on the subject. He generally seems to know quite a lot about China.
A closer (but imperfect) analogy would be if during the US Civil War, The South retained Florida because The British intervened and prevented a reunifucation of the country, and neither side ever conceded, and there are still people alive that remember all of this happening.
And now The British are demanding international legitimacy for The Confederacy even though it’s a red line for the North and most people in Florida don’t even want it, but The British gain from it.
And to point out a major issue with the Israel analogy: Israel is a settler-colonial project of The West whereas Formosa was previously Chinese / indigenous, then colonized by the Japanese, and finally conquered by the imperialist-backed nationalists. This is closer to liberation than a colonial claim.
you miss something , simple check out what the “excat” name of the Goverment currently (temporarly Embaressed) Presiding ON the ISLAND of Taiwan /Formosa is.
you dont even need to check that out i helped you
Both Sides Claim All of china its the most extremly logical thing a GOVERMENT OF CHINA
can do. Its btw not your fault that you dont know shit about Taiwan , but have a vague feeling of Indignation on its behalf this is your Media working as Intented in its “SOFTPOWER” Capacity
Media is Softpower , the ability to make you hate what is not your enemy…
What they mean is that the Taiwanese government isn’t just pushing for independence like the uwu BBC and guardian would like you to believe but full control and ownership of the entire mainland harking back to the nationalist belief in their government that they ARE the real China despite being the ultimate sore losers about it.
It complicated but one thing you can be sure is that the western narrative on it is almost all spin, propaganda and manufactured consent because demonising China and propping up Taiwan is Americas strategy for either sanctioning China so American doesn’t lose its economic clout and so that if that fails they can manufacture consent for an armed conflict to accomplish the same ends.
I mean the western MSM are already banging the drums of war at america and NATOs behest and a war with China is abjectly bad for this planet but like American politicians give a shit about that.
Thanks for explaining it to me a lot more clearly, you have any good resources to read into this about? Any authors you’d recommend? This is a massive blind spot in my political knowledge.
ARTICLE 1. The territory of the Republic of China consists of the various provinces and Mongolia and Tibet.
Note that this refers to the provinces as they were considered in 1931, which means it includes all the concessions by PRC to Russia, Vietnam etc.
We can reach the same conclusion by understanding that the ROC holds itself as the sole inheritor of Qing, thereby all its lands. These lands are what they use for the outline of China, such as in the emblem of their marine corps.
I will say in parting that this doesn’t mean the people of Taiwan island necessarily consider their government to be the rightful governors of PRC lands, let alone the rest of these claims. They have no intention or desire to invade Mongolia. Indeed, they may not have in 1947, and therefore didn’t make any mentions of Mongolia or areas ceded by CPC. Regardless, successive governments have made no attempts to clarify this with new legislation.
Yes Taiwan claims not only all of China but some parts of Mongolia and India too, they actually claim more than the PRC. They want one China as well, they just wanted to be the ones in charge.
To be fair, that segment of the KMT is mostly dead and gone. The two major factions remaining are the KMT that want the one China status quo to continue and want to just do business with the mainland, and the DPP imperialist radlib fascists who want to declare independence and host US nukes. Nobody is really seriously claiming that the RoC could actually control the PRC in 2023
i also dont follow you , why do you always talk about the Geographic entity ? (Formosa) Why you give them agency and goals , its a fucking piece of clay , a Inanimated object … Talk about the “Republic of China” and the "Peoples repbulic of China…
and if your sentence then does not make sense . then this is your Answer . Your inital Position assumes a wild fanatsy in which a Taiwan exist with a Nation on it calling itself Taiwan , that DO not Want to Be China .
Both goverments Agree that Formosa belongs to China … they are in conflict about the “specific” China.
Look I’m genuinely trying to get what your argument is there’s no need to be so combative because I used the wrong word for that island and the people inside of it. I don’t think I’m being obtuse or anything, just you presented a tautological argument without any evidence so I don’t know what I’m supposed to read into.
Many apologies upon a reread that’s a lot more clear I think I just mistook the context of how westerners espouse about these issues to Thomas and I’m wound up in these same biases.
that you use this word is no accident. it is the Result of “Softpower working on you” it is not you fault , you are not guilty of the fact that every Media around you trieds do deliberatly confuse you , and my com,ent is not Combative. Again its not your Fault. It is no “Accident” that your brain uses “Taiwan” it is the result of a strategy of tension against its Geopolitcal rival with use of Softpower assets .
Maybe I’m missing something but how does this legitimise the claim that China has over Taiwan? Surely you could use the same line of reasoning with Israel right? Genuinely curious btw as I’ve only ever dipped my toe into the history of this stuff. I feel like I’d like to look at any data gathered about how people living in Taiwan feel about this.
Oh boy okay so I asked this in another life and the history behind Taiwan is kinda fucking mad and does arguably justify it being a part of China imo because it was previously and only isn’t now cos of nationalists.
I’m sure someone more well read than me can fill in the blanks but my understand is as follows:
So yeah I dunno but that history informed the UN decision and only now that the west have realised they can really use this to benefit themselves have they started pushing the free Taiwan angle hard.
Take from that what you will as I learnt all this second hand.
One big thing to keep in mind though is that the DPP, the people who want to declare independence and claim that Taiwan isn’t China, are all simps for Japanese colonialism.
Lmao no wonder the west loves them then
Thank you so much that offers some great jump off points for some reading. I’m definitely too uniformed to have an opinion here lol.
You’re never too uninformed to ask questions though and that’s what you are doing so that’s good and based.
We all have to learn and I’m doing my best as well uwu
I feel that way a lot being in a community with them lol. They are all extremely helpful and ready to explain and give links to info. It helps us all learn when people ask questions.
to all the helpful comrades and all those asking good faith questions
Yeah this is really beautiful and enlightening, it’s hard to deprogram yourself from this shit as you’re spoon fed so much stuff from the get-go it’s hard to reassess what’s different forms of wester kompromat.
Absolutely. Its definitely a process unlearning western propoganda
That’s such a fantastic attitude. I just want to commend you for being able to realise that.
Mostly correct but you got mixed up toward the end. The KMT, the old nationalist party, is actually the moderate and reasonable party now that wants a status quo to continue (One China policy but autonomy) and want to increase business relations with the mainland. The new Liberal party don’t want to just “move forward” they want to become a US military base and declare independence. They are western stooges and imperialists. The KMT is ironically the better option
Ah cool thank you
The best option is of course a slow and peaceful economic and diplomatic merge over time, but for this to happen America has to seriously fuck off and be dealt with because they do everything in their power to prevent that. They will install suicidal fascists with nukes before they allow it. For that reason, China might have to make a sudden and aggressive move and I will support them when/if they do.
Yeah when you speak to libs and suggest a solution to a problem its always “oh really and how’s that supposed to work in the real world?”
and like 99% of the time it’s literally just America stopping it. Every fucking time.
See: Venezuela, Iraq, Iran, Brazil, Cuba… the list goes on
That’s one way of putting it, lmao
We keep it light here don’t we comrades
If you ever want to know more, I know @robinn2@hexbear.net has compiled several great resources on the subject. He generally seems to know quite a lot about China.
Thank you comrade will do
That asshole will be shot first, put him on top of the purge list!
I hate melodic death metal.
Lmao what metal do you like?
System of a Down, Hed PE, Born of Osiris, Lamb of God are some picks from me
Hates melo death, posts metal core
Hey that’s just me! Each to there own, I’m not a metal head if you didn’t guess lol
👀 lmao its cool and lamb of god are sick, blood of the scribe is 🔥
Just to add on to this, I believe Taiwan wasnt really a part of China until it was conquered by the Qing dynasty in the late 17th century.
deleted by creator
A closer (but imperfect) analogy would be if during the US Civil War, The South retained Florida because The British intervened and prevented a reunifucation of the country, and neither side ever conceded, and there are still people alive that remember all of this happening.
And now The British are demanding international legitimacy for The Confederacy even though it’s a red line for the North and most people in Florida don’t even want it, but The British gain from it.
And to point out a major issue with the Israel analogy: Israel is a settler-colonial project of The West whereas Formosa was previously Chinese / indigenous, then colonized by the Japanese, and finally conquered by the imperialist-backed nationalists. This is closer to liberation than a colonial claim.
you miss something , simple check out what the “excat” name of the Goverment currently (temporarly Embaressed) Presiding ON the ISLAND of Taiwan /Formosa is.
you dont even need to check that out i helped you
Both Sides Claim All of china its the most extremly logical thing a GOVERMENT OF CHINA can do. Its btw not your fault that you dont know shit about Taiwan , but have a vague feeling of Indignation on its behalf this is your Media working as Intented in its “SOFTPOWER” Capacity Media is Softpower , the ability to make you hate what is not your enemy…
I’m really sorry I’m not quite following what you’re saying. Taiwan are claiming all of China?
I think the question is surely should or does Taiwan want independence rather than pointing to the top of a Wikipedia page right?
What they mean is that the Taiwanese government isn’t just pushing for independence like the uwu BBC and guardian would like you to believe but full control and ownership of the entire mainland harking back to the nationalist belief in their government that they ARE the real China despite being the ultimate sore losers about it.
It complicated but one thing you can be sure is that the western narrative on it is almost all spin, propaganda and manufactured consent because demonising China and propping up Taiwan is Americas strategy for either sanctioning China so American doesn’t lose its economic clout and so that if that fails they can manufacture consent for an armed conflict to accomplish the same ends.
I mean the western MSM are already banging the drums of war at america and NATOs behest and a war with China is abjectly bad for this planet but like American politicians give a shit about that.
Thanks for explaining it to me a lot more clearly, you have any good resources to read into this about? Any authors you’d recommend? This is a massive blind spot in my political knowledge.
There’s no clear territorial definition of what constitutes the area of the ROC in their constitution. It mostly refers to a mainland, defined as the areas controlled by Chinese Communists.
Provisional Constitution Of The Republic Of China (1931) has one though, which is what’s alluded to in the constitution:
Note that this refers to the provinces as they were considered in 1931, which means it includes all the concessions by PRC to Russia, Vietnam etc.
We can reach the same conclusion by understanding that the ROC holds itself as the sole inheritor of Qing, thereby all its lands. These lands are what they use for the outline of China, such as in the emblem of their marine corps.
I will say in parting that this doesn’t mean the people of Taiwan island necessarily consider their government to be the rightful governors of PRC lands, let alone the rest of these claims. They have no intention or desire to invade Mongolia. Indeed, they may not have in 1947, and therefore didn’t make any mentions of Mongolia or areas ceded by CPC. Regardless, successive governments have made no attempts to clarify this with new legislation.
Nope not of the top of my head lmao 🙃
Like there’s loads but honestly i wouldn’t know what to recommend, I’m kinda hoping someone else can fill in the blanks in my own understanding.
I SAID I WAS HOPING ANOTHER HEXBEAR WOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO ADD OR SOME RESOURCES!!
I bet lemmygrad has them on tap if you wanted to ask them as well tbh.
Thanks a billion, probably more than a hint I should do the leg work lol. I’ll edit in anything I find interesting!
Yes Taiwan claims not only all of China but some parts of Mongolia and India too, they actually claim more than the PRC. They want one China as well, they just wanted to be the ones in charge.
To be fair, that segment of the KMT is mostly dead and gone. The two major factions remaining are the KMT that want the one China status quo to continue and want to just do business with the mainland, and the DPP imperialist radlib fascists who want to declare independence and host US nukes. Nobody is really seriously claiming that the RoC could actually control the PRC in 2023
To illustrate your point about the ROC claiming a bunch of shit, here’s the current emblem of the ROC Marine Corps:
Yes.
Not just China, they also claim territories belonging to Russia, Japan, North Korea and a bunch of other countries, most significantly Outer Mongolia.
i also dont follow you , why do you always talk about the Geographic entity ? (Formosa) Why you give them agency and goals , its a fucking piece of clay , a Inanimated object … Talk about the “Republic of China” and the "Peoples repbulic of China…
and if your sentence then does not make sense . then this is your Answer . Your inital Position assumes a wild fanatsy in which a Taiwan exist with a Nation on it calling itself Taiwan , that DO not Want to Be China . Both goverments Agree that Formosa belongs to China … they are in conflict about the “specific” China.
Look I’m genuinely trying to get what your argument is there’s no need to be so combative because I used the wrong word for that island and the people inside of it. I don’t think I’m being obtuse or anything, just you presented a tautological argument without any evidence so I don’t know what I’m supposed to read into.
Thomas’s first language is not English and they talk in a rather flowery unique way. Don’t mistake that for hostility against you
Many apologies upon a reread that’s a lot more clear I think I just mistook the context of how westerners espouse about these issues to Thomas and I’m wound up in these same biases.
that you use this word is no accident. it is the Result of “Softpower working on you” it is not you fault , you are not guilty of the fact that every Media around you trieds do deliberatly confuse you , and my com,ent is not Combative. Again its not your Fault. It is no “Accident” that your brain uses “Taiwan” it is the result of a strategy of tension against its Geopolitcal rival with use of Softpower assets .