Windows.
You pay ~100€ just to give your personal data to MS and get a bloated OS that will use all of your resources. Even MacOS is a more fair deal than this.
I agree that it’s not great that telemetry is shared, but to say that you buy it “just” to share your data is an exaggeration. I am sure you do useful things with it.
That said, yes, it is bloated and I wish you could really turn off all telemetry. Am totally with you on that.
I bet you’re the type to follow the docker install instructions*, arent you?
Thank you, I think the Cult of Docker does more harm than good for the selfhosting community in the long run as it encourages copy/paste admins. Manually installing services in LXC gives you all the advantages of Docker plus the full control of a VM or bare metal install.
As a long time working the ops side of things as a Unix/Linux admin, I love docker with k8s. The devs. can have whatever kind of ignorant environment setup they want. As long as the final image passes security, is up to date, and I can define the deployment parameters, it’s 100% on them how well it works in production.
As I said, not a fan of Docker, but 8ks are really interesting and I want to learn more. I like especially the fact I can configure “pods” (is that the right term?) that multiply over different containers and hardware based on load and demand. The idea of a self-replicating swarm of threads is fascinating to me.
But using a docker to run mariadb and another docker to run a photo app and another docker to run a web server that connects over a docker network… and all this runs inside a VM, it’s wasted overhead to me. Especially today where everyone can run proxmox and vmware at home for free.
Last time i paid for windows was 98se. And xp, but that was a blatant illegal copy (from a legit store, with new laptop). Back then it was far too expensive, but still worth it compared to win1x now.
I’ve owned probably 45 computers or more in my life and I’ve never paid Microsoft for shit. Saying Windows is a scam is rather stupid, you can literally disable telemetry and it’s still the best OS available right now regardless of your emotions.
Of the three major desktop operating systems, windows is by far the worst.
The only advantage windows has is that Microsoft’s monopolistic practices in the 90s and 00s made it the de-facto OS for business to furnish employees with, which resulted in it still having better 3rd party software support than the alternatives.
As an OS, it’s hard to use, doesn’t follow logical convention’s, is super opinionated about how users should interact with it, and is missing basic usability features that have been in every other modern OS for 10+ years. It’s awesome as a video game console, barely useable as an adobe or autodesk machine, but sucks as a general purpose OS.
hard to use, doesn’t follow logical convention’s, is super opinionated about how users should interact with it, and is missing basic usability features that have been in every other modern OS for 10+ years
MacOS is an excellent workspace operating system, largely due to its near-POSIX compliance and the fact that it has access to the enormous body of tools developed for UNIX-like OSs. For development work in particular, it can use the same free and open source software, configured in the same way, that Linux uses. Aside from the DE, a developer could swap between Linux and MacOS and barely realize it. Everything from Node, to Clang, to openJDK, to Rust, along with endless ecosystems of tooling, is installable in a consistent way that matches the bulk of online documentation. This is largely in contrast to Windows, where every piece of the puzzle will have a number of gotchas and footguns, especially when dealing with having multiple environments installed.
From a design perspective, MacOS is opinionated, but feels like it’s put together by experts in UX. Its high usability is at least partially due to its simplicity and consistency, which in my opinion are hallmarks of well-designed software. MacOS also provides enough access through the Accessibility API to largely rebuild the WM, so those who don’t like the defaults have options.
The most frequent complaint that I hear about MacOS is that x feature doesn’t work like it does in windows, even though the way that x feature works in windows is steaming hot garbage. Someone who’s used to Windows would probably need a few hours/days to become as fluent with MacOS, depending on their computer literacy.
People also complain about the fact that MacOS leverages a lot of FOSS software, while keeping their software closed-source and proprietary. I agree with this criticism, but I don’t think it has anything to do with how usable MacOS is.
I’m not going to start a flame war about mobile OSs because I don’t use a mobile OS as my primary productivity device (and neither should you, but I’m not your mom). The differences between mobile OSs are much smaller, and are virtually all subjective.
Everything you just said is just… So incorrect. I don’t even know where to begin. With just saying it’s difficult to use, like what the hell are you on? How disillusioned are you that you actually feel that is a true statement?? If anything is the only OS using logical conventions, just in the simple concept of it being the most well known and common is in the world for desktop use.
I don’t even know how to start with the basic usability functions that you claim are missing but as a long time Linux user I’m very interested to see what examples you give because I’m sure everyone is interested.
Having the highest market share doesn’t mean that windows uses logical conventions, it just means that lots of people are accustomed to the conventions that it uses. The vast majority of professionals that I’ve interacted with strongly dislike having to work on a windows machine once they’ve been exposed to anything else.
Off of the top of my head, the illogical conventions that Windows uses are: storing application and OS settings together in an opaque and dangerous, globally-editable database (the registry), obfuscating the way that disks are mounted to the file system, using /cr/lf for new lines, using a backslash for directory mappings, not having anything close to a POSIX compatible scripting language, the stranglehold that “wizards” have on the OS at every level, etc. ad nausium. Most of these issues are due to Microsoft deciding to reinvent the wheel instead of conforming to existing conventions. Some of the differences are only annoying because they pick the exact opposite convention that everyone else uses (path separators, line endings), and some of them are annoying because they’re an objectively worse solution than what exists everywhere else (the registry, installation/uninstallation via wizards spawned by a settings menu).
For basic usability functions, see the lack of functional multi-desktop support 20 years after it became mainstream elsewhere. There is actually no way to switch one monitor to a 2nd workspace without switching every monitor, which makes the feature worse than useless for any serious work. In addition to that, window management in general is completely barebones. Multitasking requires you to either click on icons every time you want to switch a window, or cycle through all of your open windows with alt-tab. The file manager is kludgy and full of opinionated defaults that mysteriously only serve to make it worse at just showing files. The stock terminal emulator is something out of 1995, the new one that can be optionally enabled as a feature is better, but it still exposes a pair of painful options for shells. With WSL, the windows terminal suddenly becomes pretty useful, but having to use a Linux abstraction layer just serves to support the point that windows sucks.
I could go on and on all day, I’m a SWE with a decade of experience using Linux, 3 decades using Windows, and a few years on Mac here and there. I love my windows machine at home… as a gaming console. Having to do serious work in windows is agonizing.
I use windows for ~10 hours per day, 5 or 6 days per week because my team is currently maintaining a legacy .NET framework codebase. I’m sure there are people on earth who use windows more than I do, but I think it’s extremely unlikely that you’re one of them.
What makes it the best os? Even without telemetry, it has a huge memory and CPU footprint from a bunch of bloat services running, restricts/blocks functionality even from admin users, and is very inflexible. The only thing that kept me having a windows partition was gaming - but now a vast majority of games (and other software without official Linux support) can be played with wine/proton. My PC idles at 0%-2% CPU usage and about 6 GB of ram, and basically all of that ram comes from me self hosting a good number of docker containers. And even that aside, windows collects data from a lot more than just the telemetry option
Memory you aren’t using is wasted memory. You should really look into understanding super fetch and the reason Windows “wastes” memory, reality is it’s sitting files that have common usage in memory so it isn’t constantly pulling them from drives. I mean just the fact that people are running Windows 11 smoothly on Chromebooks with 32gb of emmc 1.5ghz processors and 2gb of memory stands to make your entire statement pretty silly.
Microsoft literally used to make it part of their OEM agreement that manufacturers couldn’t bundle their machines with anything but Windows, you’ve paid for it in the form of reduced competition in the OS market.
Windows. You pay ~100€ just to give your personal data to MS and get a bloated OS that will use all of your resources. Even MacOS is a more fair deal than this.
I agree that it’s not great that telemetry is shared, but to say that you buy it “just” to share your data is an exaggeration. I am sure you do useful things with it.
That said, yes, it is bloated and I wish you could really turn off all telemetry. Am totally with you on that.
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Win-debloat
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Thank you, I think the Cult of Docker does more harm than good for the selfhosting community in the long run as it encourages copy/paste admins. Manually installing services in LXC gives you all the advantages of Docker plus the full control of a VM or bare metal install.
God I hate Docker. It’s a great system for lazy devs to NOT learn how to deploy software.
(I love LXC containers and QEMU, tho)
I’ve found my people!
As a long time working the ops side of things as a Unix/Linux admin, I love docker with k8s. The devs. can have whatever kind of ignorant environment setup they want. As long as the final image passes security, is up to date, and I can define the deployment parameters, it’s 100% on them how well it works in production.
Docker is awesome for real production environments but trains home users to just copy/paste/enter random shit from the internet.
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As I said, not a fan of Docker, but 8ks are really interesting and I want to learn more. I like especially the fact I can configure “pods” (is that the right term?) that multiply over different containers and hardware based on load and demand. The idea of a self-replicating swarm of threads is fascinating to me.
But using a docker to run mariadb and another docker to run a photo app and another docker to run a web server that connects over a docker network… and all this runs inside a VM, it’s wasted overhead to me. Especially today where everyone can run proxmox and vmware at home for free.
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Heh. You. I like you.
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Oh wow, aren’t you a cranky bitch. I didn’t say you "should " do anything, I linked a tool I’ve constantly been told good things about.
You know what they say about when you assume, you turn out to be an ignorant dipshit.
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And then it shows you ads, too!
Wait… You paid for Windows? And it was version 8 or newer?
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WTF, am I the only person to have bought W10? Steam on Linux is just good enough now that my next gaming build will be Debian (or some derivative).
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Linux distros:
You can download windows (direct from Ms) for free now. Does that make it better?
But then you can’t change the wallpaper! THE WALLPAPER!
Last time i paid for windows was 98se. And xp, but that was a blatant illegal copy (from a legit store, with new laptop). Back then it was far too expensive, but still worth it compared to win1x now.
I’ve owned probably 45 computers or more in my life and I’ve never paid Microsoft for shit. Saying Windows is a scam is rather stupid, you can literally disable telemetry and it’s still the best OS available right now regardless of your emotions.
You cant disable all telemetry for “security reasons”.
Of the three major desktop operating systems, windows is by far the worst.
The only advantage windows has is that Microsoft’s monopolistic practices in the 90s and 00s made it the de-facto OS for business to furnish employees with, which resulted in it still having better 3rd party software support than the alternatives.
As an OS, it’s hard to use, doesn’t follow logical convention’s, is super opinionated about how users should interact with it, and is missing basic usability features that have been in every other modern OS for 10+ years. It’s awesome as a video game console, barely useable as an adobe or autodesk machine, but sucks as a general purpose OS.
Now do iOS and macOS!
What’s wrong with mac OS? It’s been working for my developer laptops without any big issues for a decade.
Sure I prefer linux, but OSX is infinitely better than dealing with the BS I had to put up with when I worked in a .NET shop.
A functional terminal, docker works well with virtual networks, and brew exists.
Sure.
MacOS is an excellent workspace operating system, largely due to its near-POSIX compliance and the fact that it has access to the enormous body of tools developed for UNIX-like OSs. For development work in particular, it can use the same free and open source software, configured in the same way, that Linux uses. Aside from the DE, a developer could swap between Linux and MacOS and barely realize it. Everything from Node, to Clang, to openJDK, to Rust, along with endless ecosystems of tooling, is installable in a consistent way that matches the bulk of online documentation. This is largely in contrast to Windows, where every piece of the puzzle will have a number of gotchas and footguns, especially when dealing with having multiple environments installed.
From a design perspective, MacOS is opinionated, but feels like it’s put together by experts in UX. Its high usability is at least partially due to its simplicity and consistency, which in my opinion are hallmarks of well-designed software. MacOS also provides enough access through the Accessibility API to largely rebuild the WM, so those who don’t like the defaults have options.
The most frequent complaint that I hear about MacOS is that x feature doesn’t work like it does in windows, even though the way that x feature works in windows is steaming hot garbage. Someone who’s used to Windows would probably need a few hours/days to become as fluent with MacOS, depending on their computer literacy.
People also complain about the fact that MacOS leverages a lot of FOSS software, while keeping their software closed-source and proprietary. I agree with this criticism, but I don’t think it has anything to do with how usable MacOS is.
I’m not going to start a flame war about mobile OSs because I don’t use a mobile OS as my primary productivity device (and neither should you, but I’m not your mom). The differences between mobile OSs are much smaller, and are virtually all subjective.
You’re welcome.
Everything you just said is just… So incorrect. I don’t even know where to begin. With just saying it’s difficult to use, like what the hell are you on? How disillusioned are you that you actually feel that is a true statement?? If anything is the only OS using logical conventions, just in the simple concept of it being the most well known and common is in the world for desktop use.
I don’t even know how to start with the basic usability functions that you claim are missing but as a long time Linux user I’m very interested to see what examples you give because I’m sure everyone is interested.
Having the highest market share doesn’t mean that windows uses logical conventions, it just means that lots of people are accustomed to the conventions that it uses. The vast majority of professionals that I’ve interacted with strongly dislike having to work on a windows machine once they’ve been exposed to anything else.
Off of the top of my head, the illogical conventions that Windows uses are: storing application and OS settings together in an opaque and dangerous, globally-editable database (the registry), obfuscating the way that disks are mounted to the file system, using /cr/lf for new lines, using a backslash for directory mappings, not having anything close to a POSIX compatible scripting language, the stranglehold that “wizards” have on the OS at every level, etc. ad nausium. Most of these issues are due to Microsoft deciding to reinvent the wheel instead of conforming to existing conventions. Some of the differences are only annoying because they pick the exact opposite convention that everyone else uses (path separators, line endings), and some of them are annoying because they’re an objectively worse solution than what exists everywhere else (the registry, installation/uninstallation via wizards spawned by a settings menu).
For basic usability functions, see the lack of functional multi-desktop support 20 years after it became mainstream elsewhere. There is actually no way to switch one monitor to a 2nd workspace without switching every monitor, which makes the feature worse than useless for any serious work. In addition to that, window management in general is completely barebones. Multitasking requires you to either click on icons every time you want to switch a window, or cycle through all of your open windows with alt-tab. The file manager is kludgy and full of opinionated defaults that mysteriously only serve to make it worse at just showing files. The stock terminal emulator is something out of 1995, the new one that can be optionally enabled as a feature is better, but it still exposes a pair of painful options for shells. With WSL, the windows terminal suddenly becomes pretty useful, but having to use a Linux abstraction layer just serves to support the point that windows sucks.
I could go on and on all day, I’m a SWE with a decade of experience using Linux, 3 decades using Windows, and a few years on Mac here and there. I love my windows machine at home… as a gaming console. Having to do serious work in windows is agonizing.
Lol I guess you haven’t used Windows in a very very long time
I use windows for ~10 hours per day, 5 or 6 days per week because my team is currently maintaining a legacy .NET framework codebase. I’m sure there are people on earth who use windows more than I do, but I think it’s extremely unlikely that you’re one of them.
If it was included in something, that’s still a purchase.
If you build your own computer, it’s not included in anything. Pretty easy to do, too.
And if it wasn’t?
What makes it the best os? Even without telemetry, it has a huge memory and CPU footprint from a bunch of bloat services running, restricts/blocks functionality even from admin users, and is very inflexible. The only thing that kept me having a windows partition was gaming - but now a vast majority of games (and other software without official Linux support) can be played with wine/proton. My PC idles at 0%-2% CPU usage and about 6 GB of ram, and basically all of that ram comes from me self hosting a good number of docker containers. And even that aside, windows collects data from a lot more than just the telemetry option
Memory you aren’t using is wasted memory. You should really look into understanding super fetch and the reason Windows “wastes” memory, reality is it’s sitting files that have common usage in memory so it isn’t constantly pulling them from drives. I mean just the fact that people are running Windows 11 smoothly on Chromebooks with 32gb of emmc 1.5ghz processors and 2gb of memory stands to make your entire statement pretty silly.
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I’ll want to see the math on this one.
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Microsoft literally used to make it part of their OEM agreement that manufacturers couldn’t bundle their machines with anything but Windows, you’ve paid for it in the form of reduced competition in the OS market.