To their credit, there’s no evidence in that episode that the crew judged them for who they were or how they behaved.
The reacted to the difference, they never once condemned them for their difference.
This is my take too. Well said.
They kind of did. Picard was clearly disgusted by them.
Well, he’s French. Criticizing him for being disgusted by other cultures is disrespecting his culture.
Willy: “The French and the Irish are natural enemies!”
How dare you not being French? I’ll stop understanding even un tout petit peu of English.
Yes Officer, this one right here.
That was just because there were more children on his ship.
Really…? How so?
I would have said bemused, frustrated, confused, dismissive… He knows he’s not a patient man and he doesn’t like disorder on his ship.
It’s all about him from what I can see. Don’t remember him suggesting his reactions were down to them being disgusting?
Honestly in that episode, the crew were more freaked out by the clones than the Irish
Was he though? He mostly looked like a captain who wasn’t thrilled with the idea of a large group of non-navy civilians starting fires onboard his ship and having their animals shit everywhere.
In the Star Trek universe, mankind began sending sleeper ships to remote parts of the galaxy in the 1990s. Long before WWIII, long before First Contact, long before the Federation.
It’s a weird splinter of the human race that never became enlightened by near-extinction but colonized distant planets anyways. So not all humans have matured at the same rate.
TOS deals with a lot of these, TNG also touched on it. Then you have the 37s in Voyager and New Eden in Discovery - pre-warp humans living off Earth for other reasons. I’m probably missing a whole bunch more.
Your explanation does not make any of this less ridiculous. Just because people aren’t evolving or changing culture right along side earth humans, doesn’t mean they stay stuck in their old culture and never progress. You can explain it away any way you like but these are the star trek episodes that are inexplicably stupid and make the series look bad
Actually, if your group is small and it takes all of your time and energy just to not die, it’s really hard if not impossible to progress technologically or socially.
There are still tribal humans here on Earth in 2024. Not because they’re stupid or less evolved, but because they’re too busy staying alive to think about building roads or inventing mechanical devices.
The OP picture is an unfair slant. Those are FlyingSquid’s words. Those Irish didn’t colonize another planet because they were drunk or ignorant. They decided to leave the comfort of Earth to become pioneers and risk their lives on a future that was not guaranteed. They survived, and they had to continue surviving for centuries. And surviving meant focusing on farming and reproducing and sticking to what they knew. Philosophy was a much lower priority.
…And after only a few generations, I imagine the number of people who knew how to operate and maintain their ship dropped to zero. No time to operate a radio that no one is listening to when there are fields to plow.
No time to operate a radio that no one is listening to when there are fields to plow.
It was their choice to be dirt farmers and stay that way.
“followers of an early 22nd century philosopher who advocated returning to a pre-industrial agrarian lifestyle”
The other ship didn’t have that philosophy and developed a utopia. Their only problem was there were too few of them so they resorted to cloning.
IIRC the colonists intentionally wanted this way of life. To live in harmony with nature and all that. So I don’t get this critique of ‘they didn’t change’ when that was the whole point.
When humanity starts actually colonizing space (in Artifical habitats most likely) techno- primitivism in a wide array of variations is highly likely.
One of Trek’s biggest problems has always been the lack of scale. Developed star systems like Sol should have a population in the trillions, largely in Artifical space habitats that can be custom tailored to stimulate any environment imaginable.
The offensive part is that there aren’t hundreds or thousands such communities spread out all over the place, mimicking or inventing a bazillion variations of every imaginable culture.
There’s unenlightened people and there just bigoted stereotypes. This is the latter.
It’s only a “bigoted stereotype” if you think their portrayal was an intentional effort to make them look bad. I do not agree that was the case.
Like so much TV of that era, it was the trope of throwing two completely incompatible things into a room and watching hijinks ensue.
But in Star Trek fashion, at the end of the episode, both sides gained a little awareness about themselves and developed a little tolerance for the others. (Also, I really like the leader of the group because he connects Star Trek to Doctor Who.)
“The Irish are drunks” is pretty damn bigoted. And that was the implication.
I’m far from the only one who thinks so. Colm Meany agrees.
Colm Meaney (Transporter Chief Miles Edward O’Brien) was reportedly not too thrilled by the story’s depiction of Irish characters. Being little more than a bit player, he had no say in scripts. Years later, in If Wishes Were Horses (1993), Meaney was a series regular, and was given a script focusing on O’Brien’s Irishness in a condescending way. He had the “Wishes” story rewritten to eliminate, or at least mitigate, that slant.
Ugh, season 1 of Deep Space Nine is another matter entirely (and a completely different production staff).
My take on the TNG episode is THOSE Irish were drunks. Just like THOSE Irish were farmers. Or like Picard’s family. THOSE Frenchmen were vintners. Another stereotype that seems to bother fans less than Picard’s British accent.
Almost 40 years have passed since then, and we’ve certainly matured about how we represent ethnic groups. But the primary motivation of the production staff back then was ‘how little money can we spend to make an episode?’
I still want an indepth explanation of the people who work on his farm picking grapes. They have access to every necessity and luxury for free but they’re doing manual labour on a giant vineyard. I think Picard even says they’ve worked for the family for generations, did they do this before the post scarcity economy? Do the not have land of their own? Which brings up the question how does inheritance and land sale work if as Picard says to cryogenic-Johnny Cash they’ve moved beyond money?
Honestly it seems a nice life, role-playing preindustrial farming with zero stakes because you’ll never go hungry no matter what happens. I think those peoples lives are probably more interesting than most the stuff that happens on the enterprise.
I agree w/ you.
That being said, as bad as this was, TNG Ferengi are straight up covetous space Jews.
And there was no mitigation of the distaste of the crew for Ferengi. It’s like “Captain, I don’t know how I feel about having a Ferengi on board”
“Yes, I know, but we have to let him be here, but hopefully we can get rid of him as soon as possible”
They’re not “space Jews”. Most of the actors that portray Ferengi are Jewish. Also Armin Shimerman, the most famous Ferengi actor, says it’s mostly Americans that think the Ferengi are Jewish.
“In America, people ask ‘Do the Ferengi represent Jews?’ In England, they ask ‘Do the Ferengi represent the Irish?’ In Australia, they ask if the Ferengi represent the Chinese,” Shimerman said. “The Ferengi represent the outcast… it’s the person who lives among us that we don’t fully understand.”
The small, hunched over, sharp-teethed peoples obsessed with money (to the selfish and wonton destruction of any conventional conception of cohesive functional societal constructs) may or may not be associated with the Nazi Germany stereotype for Jews.
Paramount having a Jewish actor explain that it’s an allegory for any non-specific “out group” may or or may not be a PR response to the questions around if the small, hunched over, sharp-teethed people obsessed with money (to the selfish and wonton destruction of any conventional conception of cohesive functional societal constructs) may or not be associated with the Nazi Germany stereotype for Jews.
Edit: And for the record, I’m not from the USA, England, or Australia. Culturally closest to Australia, I suppose. But the point stands that there are local cultural prejudices that probably do inform interpretation, but that doesn’t necessarily negate culturally explosive prejudiced characteristics that were generated by the cultural juggernaut that was Nazi Germany. Just because Australians might think Chinese, doesn’t mean the American writers weren’t modelling after American stereotypes adopted from Nazi Germany
So you think the writers of Star Trek TNG (in the 80s) were secretly all former Nazis (or neo-Nazis)? The show is progressive in all other ways, so I guess these are progressive Nazis?
Which is more likely, that you are right and progressive neo-Nazis secretly based the Ferengi on Jewish stereotypes? Or that the Jewish actors who literally wore the makeup and spoke the lines are right? Hmmm…
I don’t think the writers were neo Nazis.
I do think the writers, like all people, are vulnerable to application of stereotypes.
I do think that nobody exists in a binary state of progressive or regressive, either.
I also think that the two options you present are not mutually exclusive. The writers may have drawn upon what they maybe didn’t even consciously recognize to be ethnic stereotypes. The Jewish actors are free to communicate whatever interpretation they choose for whatever reason they choose.
I guess I’d challenge you with a few questions of my own: do you believe that being a member of a community confers upon you absolute discretion on if an institution of which you belong is racist? If so, do you accept African American Republicans claim that the RNC is not racist? What weight do you give Caitlin Jenner’s assertion that the RNC is not transphobic? How do you reconsile that with members of those communities who say they are racist and transphobic?
Do you believe that actors always honestly communicate their own personal views regarding the projects on which they work? Do you believe there could be a conflict of interest should they speak negatively about their employers? Do you believe that it’s possible that some people, when put in a position of internal conflict, may construct an interpretation of reality in which they are morally absolved of the harm their employment might have? Do you believe everyone at Chevron, Lockheed Martin, or Nestle would tell you that in the course of their employment that they participate in harm?
I provided a first hand source and your rebuttal is “No, it conflicts with what I thought up on my own.”
Obviously nothing is going to convince you that you’re wrong.
Probably, but I want to point out that the - arguably - most important, intelligent and charismatic character in all of Star Trek lore is an Irish too.
most important, intelligent and charismatic character
Blink twice if O’Brien made you say that to avoid going in the buffer
deleted by creator
Oh no, O’Brien got zaphod!
BUFFERED
True, but that is sort of a later correction in a different show.
spoiler
His origins weren’t talked about until DS9. Until then, he was just a guy with an Irish name and accent. He could have come from a drunken goat farming Irish planet too for all we knew on TNG.
spoiler
I agree with your premise, but obviously you meant Kevin Riley and just got confused…
Maybe the Irish goat farmers are actually peak humans. Have you considered that?!
I consider drunks to be the pinnacle of civilization. They’re funny, charismatic, and smell nice.
Do not ask me why I think that.
You caught yourself in the mirror again, didn’t you?
Hmm, you made me find Spice bags and now I need to go to Ireland to try that.
Didn’t Riker also try to bang one?
This could be said about any episode of TNG.
I’m pretty sure he succeeded.
He only washed her feet.
You know who else “only” washed feet?
He gets us.
This was possibly the most offensive episode from TNG.
I have pushed back hard on the idea that the Ferengi are space Jews (the Bajorans are space Jews, the Cardassians are space Nazis). The Ferengi are space capitalist Americans - Riker even called them “yankee traders.”
I’ve defended, somewhat, the sexist aspects of TOS by saying it was the 60s and they were trying. They probably did more good than bad.
I know that LGBT-phobia (or concerns about it) made them back off on how Garak was played. I know the Troi stuff ranged from cringe to rape culture, and I know that having Riker being neo-Kirk with the ladies was… a choice.
But the Irish episode was the closest thing to blackface I’ve seen on Trek. I can’t even watch that episode.
I’ve defended, somewhat, the sexist aspects of TOS by saying it was the 60s and they were trying. They probably did more good than bad.
Didn’t they Freaky Friday Kirk with a woman and then let her be discovered because as a woman she was too hysterical to be in charge?
They could have tried harder.
Again, 60s. Women on the bridge not serving coffee was revolutionary.
At least they didn’t have a B plot where some of them get radicalized and try to commandeer the Enterprise and fill the cargo bay to the brim with rifles and bayonets.
No, but they are told that will have to be polygamous at the end, to the delight of all the Irish men who are also, apparently, sexually promiscuous.
To the delight of the women too. Especially after seeing they, “Might have more than two coins to rub together.”
They were basically space amish who intentionally wanted to live a simple, tech free life.
