Yes, but none of that refutes the argument that we lack free will. The trillions of interactions leading up to an ‘action’ on our part can be random, determined, or some mixture - but they still ‘cause’ our next action, rather than our 'free will ’ causing the action. If you believe in free will, you believe in a magical quality we possess which is somehow neither random (else it wouldnt be ‘will’) nor determined (else it wouldn’t be ‘free’)
I personally find all discussion around free will annoying. Whether or not I have free will I still have to decide to do shit. I can’t just go on autopilot.
I mean yeah, I don’t believe in free will, but in day to day life I still get annoyed at my friends when they can’t seem to make simple choices and feel best when I feel like I’m making good choices.
Imho our language hasn’t really caught up, someone mentioned the idea of distinguishing free will from agency which is intriguing, because at a fundamental level we still need to feel like we’re making choices in day to day life because of our how our brains are wired, but at the same time from a moral and philosophical truth standpoint it’s incredibly important to still consider the implications of free will not existing…
Society is just starting to wake up to the idea of “systemic issues”, not believing in free will forces you to consider all issues as systemic, something a lot more intellectually challenging but that ultimately reveals a lot more truth and comfort about the world, and imho provides a very strong moral foundation.
So if there’s more than 1 action that your brain can decide upon, does that mean free will because you have a choice, or no free will because you are confined within those finite choices?
There is no free will because who, what and where you are conditions you to make a certain choice every single time, and there is no will external to all that what you are and you experienced so far.
It’s kinda related to the multiverse theory, where every choice or chance creates a new version of reality and if you had made another choice it wouldn’t be YOU.
At least that’s what they argue. I also think of it this way.
When you phrase it that way, though, it makes the ‘you’ part stand out and in that regard you do have free will to do as you choose, it’s just an internal lack of ‘ethereal choices’ we’re lacking. The fact that if the choice were somehow “replayed”, you would make the same choice is kind of meaningless since we don’t experience that….the point at the quantum/chaos theory level is that there is no way to look at the current set of circumstances and say with any degree of certainty what your decision will be. Whether this involves some magic autonomy ‘above’ the chemical and quantum nature of your brain is just semantics as far as whether we’re the one ultimately in the drivers seat or whether we’re just experiencing things from what appears to be behind the wheel. Maybe think of it as sitting on the lap of the universe while we pretend to hit the gas and shift the gears.
It depends on the context of the conversation though. Free will and whether or not it exists has massive implications on aspects of society like criminality and the justice system.
If we have the statistics showing the crime tracks with poverty, lack of education, etc. and we don’t believe that that person is making a real “choice” in their actions, then we have to reflect on what purpose punishing them is even serving. The idea of punishment as retribution, or punishment beyond reforming them becomes nonsensical. You can imagine removing someone for the safety of others, but punishment for the sake of moral punishment or salvation (as advocated by many religious types) makes no sense.
Neither. The is no free will. You will think about which choice to make, and you’ll make a choice. But not only your choice, but also all of your thoughts about what to choose, were the inevitable result of everything that has happened in the universe leading up to that point.
It feels like you could have thought different thoughts and come to a different conclusion, but actually you couldn’t have.
Look at it this way. A supernova is the end result of an unimaginably large number of complex interactions, some of which may have been random. But there’s no reason to suppose any free will is involved. Your brain is not, philosophically speaking, meaningfully different
Yes, but none of that refutes the argument that we lack free will. The trillions of interactions leading up to an ‘action’ on our part can be random, determined, or some mixture - but they still ‘cause’ our next action, rather than our 'free will ’ causing the action. If you believe in free will, you believe in a magical quality we possess which is somehow neither random (else it wouldnt be ‘will’) nor determined (else it wouldn’t be ‘free’)
I personally find all discussion around free will annoying. Whether or not I have free will I still have to decide to do shit. I can’t just go on autopilot.
It only feels that way 😃 But yes, there’s no escaping the feeling
I mean yeah, I don’t believe in free will, but in day to day life I still get annoyed at my friends when they can’t seem to make simple choices and feel best when I feel like I’m making good choices.
Imho our language hasn’t really caught up, someone mentioned the idea of distinguishing free will from agency which is intriguing, because at a fundamental level we still need to feel like we’re making choices in day to day life because of our how our brains are wired, but at the same time from a moral and philosophical truth standpoint it’s incredibly important to still consider the implications of free will not existing…
Society is just starting to wake up to the idea of “systemic issues”, not believing in free will forces you to consider all issues as systemic, something a lot more intellectually challenging but that ultimately reveals a lot more truth and comfort about the world, and imho provides a very strong moral foundation.
So if there’s more than 1 action that your brain can decide upon, does that mean free will because you have a choice, or no free will because you are confined within those finite choices?
There is no free will because who, what and where you are conditions you to make a certain choice every single time, and there is no will external to all that what you are and you experienced so far.
It’s kinda related to the multiverse theory, where every choice or chance creates a new version of reality and if you had made another choice it wouldn’t be YOU.
At least that’s what they argue. I also think of it this way.
When you phrase it that way, though, it makes the ‘you’ part stand out and in that regard you do have free will to do as you choose, it’s just an internal lack of ‘ethereal choices’ we’re lacking. The fact that if the choice were somehow “replayed”, you would make the same choice is kind of meaningless since we don’t experience that….the point at the quantum/chaos theory level is that there is no way to look at the current set of circumstances and say with any degree of certainty what your decision will be. Whether this involves some magic autonomy ‘above’ the chemical and quantum nature of your brain is just semantics as far as whether we’re the one ultimately in the drivers seat or whether we’re just experiencing things from what appears to be behind the wheel. Maybe think of it as sitting on the lap of the universe while we pretend to hit the gas and shift the gears.
It depends on the context of the conversation though. Free will and whether or not it exists has massive implications on aspects of society like criminality and the justice system.
If we have the statistics showing the crime tracks with poverty, lack of education, etc. and we don’t believe that that person is making a real “choice” in their actions, then we have to reflect on what purpose punishing them is even serving. The idea of punishment as retribution, or punishment beyond reforming them becomes nonsensical. You can imagine removing someone for the safety of others, but punishment for the sake of moral punishment or salvation (as advocated by many religious types) makes no sense.
Neither. The is no free will. You will think about which choice to make, and you’ll make a choice. But not only your choice, but also all of your thoughts about what to choose, were the inevitable result of everything that has happened in the universe leading up to that point.
It feels like you could have thought different thoughts and come to a different conclusion, but actually you couldn’t have.
Look at it this way. A supernova is the end result of an unimaginably large number of complex interactions, some of which may have been random. But there’s no reason to suppose any free will is involved. Your brain is not, philosophically speaking, meaningfully different