I still find it frustrating to see the exact same vehicles get significantly different tow ratings here vs Europe.
The other day the dealer tried to warn not to tow my utility trailer with my car as it would hurt the transmission (trailer was empty by the way). I pulled up an article from the UK where it was in the top three of best towing cars for this year.
Dealer looked at me like his brain needed to reboot, after which he told me the cars in Europe must be built differently or get different transmissions and left it at that.
It’s truly baffling that manufacturers here hold that towing capacity hostage for arbitrary reasons.
There might actually be technical reasons for this.
E. g. top speed in Europe while towing is 100 km/h (some countries and trailers less), whereas in the US you can drive up to the designated speed limit.
Bearing load is also different, in Europe it’s usually 4 % of the trailer weight, in the US at least 10 % is recommended.
Trailers are also different, e. g. unbraked trailers only exist up to 750 kg in Europe, whereas in the US I’ve seen much heavier trailers without brakes.
Trailer brakes are also different, Europe uses overrun brakes, the US electronic brakes.
I’ve never heard the term “overrun brakes” (TIL!) before. I’ve always called them surge brakes, and they are widespread in the U.S. on the majority of boat trailers.
I’m not a native English speaker, so I may have used the wrong term here. ;)
You are 100% correct. I had to search overrun brakes online, and from what I found it seems to be a regional language variation.
That’s actually the most reasonable explanation I’ve seen so far, and it helps explain a bunch (one small correction: most states have a towing speed limit of either 55 or 65 mph, so just about the same or slower than in Europe. Canada is even worse with most provinces limiting highway towing speed to 80-90kmh). That said, it still doesn’t make any sense that our tow rating does not take into account the presence of a brake controller (that is to say, the stated towing capacity does not list braked and unbraked separately in most cars except trucks).
one small correction: most states have a towing speed limit of either 55 or 65 mph, so just about the same or slower than in Europe
Interesting, thanks for the correction! I didn’t spend the time to research it for all states / provinces, when I researched this topic a while ago.
brake controller
In Europe electronic brake controllers aren’t really a thing. Mechanical overrun brakes are used instead to brake trailers.
That said, it still doesn’t make any sense that your tow rating does not take into account the presence of a brake controller
Cars in Europe usually have two tow ratings, one for braked, the other for unbraked trailers.
My bad, that was a typo - I mean our tow rating. Most vehicles (except for trucks) don’t list the tow rating with a brake controller installed and the only way to get one is to have your vehicle rated and tested individually.
It’s so they can sell you SUVs.
My SUV can have a hitch addon but it’s towing capacity is less than a ton lol
if you saw the sheer scope of trailers, campers, Tour Bus RV’s, custom toy haulers etc that invade the coastal areas of where I live, you would realize the problem isn’t the semantics of tow vehicle size. the whole “adventure camping” myth when two people bring a 800 square foot Motorcoach with a car in tow makes me want to vomit. its like a car brain with sepsis. leave your fucking house at home.
Whenever I see a giant RV towing a giant SUV bigger than any of the vehicles I own I get a little frustrated and irritated. If you want to explore the country you can do it without taking every amenity and gadget from home. Just go out there, see and be in the world, don’t take the ‘world’ with you.
Just yesterday I was towing about a half to 2/3 of a cord of a wood with my wagon. Folks assume you need a giant truck to tow anything. Full disclosure though I was pushing the limits of my car, it pulls this weight without issue but stopping it risky and I have to drive very carefully and keep huge buffers between myself and the next car.
Been there as a kid in the 90s. Sitting in the back my my parents Toyota Carina with my 2 siblings, while we were towing a caravan.
That car had a 2l, 4 cylinder petrol and got through the Alps and Pyrenees. Iwas more comfortable touring that way than going by tent only. Now I’m in Australia where I’m gobsmacked by how much shit people “need” to go camping. All while I’m exploring the same locations and actually spending more time camping in the bush as I tour on a tiny, economical 125cc motorcycle.
Almost to prove a point, I took that little thing to Cape York and will take it RTW next year, partly to show that you don’t need much.
My camping setup fits in some boxes I have on my 650cc motorcycle. Don’t even need to tow anything.
This seems not very fuck cars but ok. Also who does not know you can tow with a car?
I think this is in response to stupid large truck vs kei truck thread that made the front page. All the car brains are going on about how everyone ever needs a stupid large truck to tow 85 boats at once
I mean this kind of mentality serves me well in Kerbal, but…
Oh you mean those 4 door vans that are passed off as a truck? Yeah no one should get those, they can’t even tow all that well and what can you even use a 4 foot bed for? These are likely the same people that think you should get a $130k 5th wheel that is 32 feet long.
But I need it to compensate for my shockingly small penis.
Body shaming is stupid.
Alright, shockingly small penis energy.
Might I suggest instead firearms?
I would be mounting unnecessarily large firearms inside of my equally unnecessarily large truck, with a rear window sticker that says “Come And Take It”
That thread was specifically telling craftspeople that they could do their jobs with the little Kei truck rather than a larger one.
If you use your truck for actual work, you want it to be able to do the job. The Kei truck cannot do the same job as the big truck.
It was a stupid comparison. It’s like telling someone that they don’t need a bucket truck to work on overhead lines or do tree trimming, they can just use a ladder hauled around in a Kei truck. See? Stupid as fuck.
No, the correct post to make would have been to point out the obvious fact that 95% of those huge trucks sold are not used for any sort of work at all, they’re just expensive and obnoxious fashion statements.
Funny, though, that in Europe, nearly nobody drives a pickup truck. Not even craftspeople. In this city, I’ve seen one (one!) private pickup, two used by the cities greens department, one by the forest department, and one by a gardening company (and they are a big gardening company, but they have real trucks for most of the work).
I find it very strange that Americans consider ‘trucks’ and ‘cars’ to be two separate things. Trucks are cars.
By law they are separate and distinct. Trucks are subject to less environmental regulations (emissions, mpg) are allowed to not conform as closely to automobile standards (the reason why you see trucks with the hood above the height of small children, and you need a stepladder to climb in) and also have to pass different crash tests to be considered “road safe” (a truck only has to not annihilate another truck in a crash test, but crash tests aren’t done with say a truck and a motorcycle, or a truck and a small car)
I don’t think it works that way anywhere outside the US. Anyways, shouldn’t it be trucks and ‘other’ cars?
Yeah, I was typing this up from the perspective of US laws. I would hope that it doesn’t work that way anywhere else! It is crazy here, haha But yes, it probably should be trucks and ‘other’ cars.
Yes, they have the law tailored to actually prefer gas guzzlers over normal cars. And less need to care for the drivers or the environments safety.
You are completely correct I was essentially trying to move along the conversation from the last post.
While you don’t need a massive truck to tow things, I also can’t recommend towing with a VW Golf. Towing isn’t just pulling a trailer, it’s also stopping a trailer, keeping it steady at speed, and having a transmission that can handle it and keep temps in check. Longer wheelbases do help with stability at speed and sports brakes aren’t built for towing.
You can bet your ass that if it’s certified to pull a certain weight in Europe, all these things have been taken into account.
Easy Google search shows this car should not be pulling a travel trailer.
Motorcycle trailer, sure. But basically best case scenario this trailer is at it’s tow capacity, which does not give much wiggle room for failure.
But most likely it’s quite past the tow capacity. It’s tow capacity is 2000kg/4400lbs. A travel trailer’s dry weight is already close to that. If it was a pop up camper that’d be one thing, but this is a full dead ass travel trailer. It’s probably around 5000lbs, and who knows what’s stuffed in the back. This is a safety issue.
Quick edit: this is not to say you need to own an F150 for the one time a year you do this, but maybe rental?
It’s also possible to have cars modified to increase towing capacity. I’m not saying this particular car has had that done. But you do see a lot of Dutch towing trailers in Germany. I’ve never heard of anything bad happening, other than them clogging the fucking motorways with their slow ass jalopies.
Idk someone else in this thread said that it’s kinda a rule in the EU not to buy a used Dutch car with a trailer hitch
What’s the test? Any videos and documentations of these tests?
And yet, the Golf is rated for up to 2,000kg in the UK (a select few Diesel models), and a 1,200-1,600kg range is typical for many other editions of that model. That’s for a trailer with its own brakes, of course. When I had a trailer with electric brakes, I could stop the whole rig with just the brake controller. I towed that trailer with an S10 Blazer, which had a wheelbase only 4 inches longer than the Golf. The trick was to load it with enough tongue weight that stability was not a problem, rather than relying on a hefty vehicle to overcome sway. I never had a problem with transmission temperatures when keeping the trailer weight under the rated capacity of the vehicle, but an aftermarket oil cooler can always be fitted.
That’s for a trailer with its own brakes, of course.
You won’t find a trailer in the EU without its own breaks over 750kg. At least not a legal one.
When I see how much crap is driving on American roads that would have been taken off the road in Europe in under a New York Second, and see how much tighter road safety regulations are in Europe, I’d say rest assured that all of this has been taken into account. Road safety is similar to many other market issues that in Europe, safety comes way before profit.
Surely no one has ever thought of that /s
The problem isn’t that no one’s thought of those things. The problem is that in Countries like the US and UK (and I’m assuming everywhere else, but maybe not) you can tow up to 7500lbs with a standard license. Last time I took my test I don’t recall them asking about towing or making me do it with a trailer. We build systems for the lowest common denominator but honestly vehicle towing is kind of a cluster fuck of “well they can drive a car, how much worse could they be with an extra 15ft and thousands of pounds behind them.” ¯_(ツ)_/¯
You need a towing license for anything heavier than 750kg. Europe and surroundings are like that. For any trailer heavier than 750kg, you need to pass an exam and get a license, no matter what’s towing it, be it truck or car and that’s the way it should be, heavy trailer behaves differently regardless what’s towing it. Then again, if this would apply everywhere we wouldn’t have so many funny videos of people fucking up their boats and similar. So carry on.
By the way, categories:
But there are still a lot of people on the road that did learn to drive before that kind of license. I did a class 3 license in Germany right before the transition…
So I have my A, A1, AM, B, BE, C1, C1E license (C1E limited to 7,5t instead of 12) without ever having learned to tow anything.
You are right. Not sure why they did the transition like that. My father has all those and higher even though he hasn’t driven a truck for decades now. But it will eventually get better.
and I’m assuming everywhere else
Yeah, I’ve noticed.
Glad someone said it. Just because you can pull something doesn’t mean you can stop or maintain pulling said thing. That being said yeah I agree you don’t always need a truck.
If the car is rated for towing the weight of the trailer, of course it can stop it. That’s what the authorities are going to test, among other things, before greenlighting a car with those specifications.
They’ll test it for the weight, however it’s important to understand the testing cycle. Were the tests only setup on flat ground? Did they adequately test braking? Did they ride the brakes for a while? Is there a difference between haulable weight with trailer brakes vs without? It’s also important to note that in the US tow ratings are setup by the manufacturer… which means that numbers are super subjective and simply a circle jerk of who is willing to legally put a larger number on the vehicle.
All the new 3/4 ton trucks can tow more than US drivers with a class C license in most states could legally carry. The numbers are kind of useless IMO.
They’ll test it for the weight, however it’s important to understand the testing cycle. Were the tests only setup on flat ground? Did they adequately test braking? Did they ride the brakes for a while?
Well, it seems that you are not familiar with European road safety testing and certification. My BIL was working in that area, and his executive summary of that was: if it passes European tests, you can sign the American test papers, too, as it would pass them with flying colors.
Will they test it? Absolutely! Every year when I extend registration on vehicle everything gets tested on a car. Vehicle must pass technical exam which lasts some 40minutes. Breaks are tested the longest among other things. They measure not only breaking force but consistency, elongation of disks if you have them, everything.
Of course there are still people out there who don’t maintain their vehicle properly after that exam, but at least once a year it has to be in tip top shape. Also if you have a towing hook by new regulation it has to be tested as well and removable. It’s actually illegal to drive with it if you are not towing anything, since it effectively negates crumple zones.
People are constantly complaining about how strict these rules here are, but I don’t. They save lives.
As far as I know, the maximum unbraked trailer mass is 750kg in Europe, although for some cars it can be lower.
With a braked trailer the limit is up to the manufacturer (and your driver’s license).
In Europe, it would not get a rating for a certain weight if it was not able to safely handle and stop it.
In my personal American experience, there’s a general notion that you need a pickup truck to tow anything; there’s so much marketing about how big tough pickup trucks can tow so much stuff and you really need this. So I think the implication of this post is less of a “fuck cars” and more of a “fuck trucks in particular”
AI drive a compact SUV (a glorified hatchback with a raised wheelbase), and took a trailer to cover the western US for my vacation this year, but looking at the vehicle in the post: The only way that works because the car drives at sea level with no grade. I had a trailer, with brakes, ~150 lbs below of my car’s recommended towing capacity, and coming over some passes sounded like I was taking thousands of miles off my car’s transmission.
Americans, which is how this post got started. Over on the site that shall remain nameless, one guy unironically told me that I might be able to tow a 150lbs. sailboat with my bicycle on flat ground, but to go up hills would require his truck. Anecdotally, I know a couple who bought a Ford Model F truck to tow a 700lbs. sailboat, because it takes a truck to tow things, despite the total weight of the boat and trailer being less than half the rated capacity for a Honda Civic.
Is yours a geared cycle? I’m pretty sure a cycle frame can carry ~150 kg, but the brakes and your legs might have issues. Like I can carry a 60 kg friend on my (ungeared) cycle on flat roads. But going uphill would definitely be hard, and downhill might be dangerous.
Yes, I have an 8-speed IGH, and a cargo trailer for my bike that’s rated for 90kg (200lbs). It adds braking distance, but standard rim brakes handle it fine. To haul a Laser sailboat would take a special trailer, because they’re about 4 meters long. It’d be a workout, but eminently possible.
Thanks, that makes sense!
Once at work I said “My Audi sedan has a towing capacity of over 5,000 lbs, isn’t that crazy?” A coworker said “That’s almost as much as my Tacoma!” (Early 2000s model). Turns out 5,000 is closer to his combined vehicle weight + towing capacity.
I remember my grandfather using the Grand Prix to tow and pull out stumps and stuff instead of the work truck.
The old Passat 4motion v6 diesels, B5.5 for those who want to know, were in fact bought by people who wanted to tow, because it had something insane like 3.5 tonnes of rated towing capacity. The 6mt ones anyway.
People think you can’t tow with cars? What?
They just love to take every excuse to buy a truck
Me and my family used to go camping. We always towed with my father’s car.
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Its probably worth noting that Europeans get more powerful cars than we do here in the US. I drive a 02 Golf TDI and it was only available as a 1.9L 90hp front wheel drive. The base model in Europe has a bigger turbo and offers 4wd versions.
That’s crazy I didn’t realize they had such low horsepower. I guess that makes sense, a diesel engine has high torque. I have a 2017 golf tsi, and it gets around 170 horsepower for comparison. I have always loved and wanted one of those TDIs.
I’ve also noticed the European versions of cars are rated to tow more. The Hyundai Ioniq I had wasn’t rated to tow anything in America. It would void my warranty. The European version was rated for 1000lbs or something like that. Europeans demand the ability to tow while I guess in America we just don’t expect a small car to do it.
Probably a result of how legislation is designed for different towing strategies. From what I’ve seen, the US favors trailers with higher hitch weight and axles further back, requiring more substantial and heavy towing vehicles, but allowing for higher speeds. In Europe, trailers are more balanced with hitch weights in the 100-150lbs range, but speed limits are lower (50ish mph).
This was my exact point from earlier - most cars that can tow a bunch of stuff in Europe or Australia simply don’t get tow ratings here at all. And yes, manufacturers will void your waranty of you do tow anything. It’s infuriating.
Did your car have a factory tow hook option? Because on many cars the “tow hook” option, makes the car come with a bunch of stuff. A strengthened rear bar, often auxillary oil coolers for the gearbox, sometimes different final drive, restriction to only a MT, or a completely different gearbox alltogether. So maybe for some reason the US ioniq didn’t have the parts available that made the ioniq be safe to tow with…
No, it definitely wasn’t an option. If you see a hitch on small cars here in America, is usually just to mount something like a bike rack. Our cars just aren’t rated to tow.
I wonder why that is
Diesel emissions regulations specifically are stricter in the US than in the EU. Gasoline emissions are not. And I guess pickup trucks aren’t cars so they might have different diesel emissions standards than cars?
for make you buy a suv or pickup with a v8 i guess.
I used to tow in the UK with a Chrysler Voyager ( American Made, 7 x Seater SUV ) it did pretty well.
Fully ladden, all seats occupied + a dog, 2 x Roof Boxes and towing my massive Trailer Tent.
Even came back from one holiday on Three cylinders cus of a HT Lead fault and yes we went up some pretty steep hills, just needed to get a bit of a run at them that’s all, lol.
Great Fun 😊
I agree but diesel cars are much more common in Europe and they have better towing capacity due to higher torque.
Not the core issue. My car does not run on Diesel, but I would not have any issues dragging such a caravan around. That is perfectly normal in Europe.
Why the Americans think one would need a thick fat pickup or truck just to pull a caravan is beyond me. Maybe it is just smart marketing to make people buy even bigger cars than they ever need.
A quick search shows a civic can tow 1,100 lbs. A dodge caravan can tow 3,600 lbs. An F-150 tows 14,000 lbs.
Now someone may have a legitimate reason to need to tow thousands of pounds, such as someone who moves horses around.
But for normal use, my tool trailer comes in under 1,000kg (2,200 lbs); maybe someone working in a mountainous area would need more power? Most likely marketing.
It’s like choosing to drive a tractor around. Those F150 are great machines in circumstances where they are needed, but to go food shopping, you don’t need that. I have a RAV4 hybrid (my work requires a large trunk space, and I have kids and a dog) and I get 50mpg and people are amazed compared to 12mpg of their truck. Go figure.
My parents used to have a 2008 dodge Durango that they were told would be good enough to haul their 3500 lb camper. (Needed 7 seats for 5 kids + them)
This thing did not do well hauling the camper. It struggled going up the mountains where we vacationed and it struggled just as bad coming back down because the brakes couldn’t handle the dead weight.
Now us kids have grown up and moved out and they got an F150 that hauls their new camper, about the same weight (3700 lb) like it’s not even back there.
I think there’s a lot more to it than how much weight the car can actually pull. But I couldn’t say since I’m not that knowledgeable.
I haul more stuff with my little 4x8 utility trailer and small hybrid than most of the big F150 people around me. I routinely get full loads of compost from the municipal dump.
The caravans in Europe are much lighter than the trailers in North America.
I’ve seen plenty of small “Euro-sized” cars pull fully loaded horse trailers, so I suspect weight is not much of an issue. You need to get power on the road, and for that bulkyness of the frame is hardly the main factor.
Are they? As caravans are quite popular in Europe, I can’t imagine we are missing something in a lighter caravan, so who do Americans have in theirs that makes the heavier?
From a quick look at an store for caravans a bit back it seems like the American caravans are much longer and have expanding sides. Basically you would need a lorry permit in Europe to be allowed to pull one of those.
Many of those are not really intended for travel, but as permanent housing. See also: Trailer Park.
It was caravans in this style:
https://usacaravans.nl/stock?token=4nplMHTi4fpWnU0C1uGPxmoGQzV6M6YEKi4xsZO1&vehicle_type[]=travel-trailerSo they don’t really look like the ones that are intended to be left in place.
The lightest of these you might be allowed to drive in Sweden with a standard license but most would require an extended license for heavy load at the least.
I’d still consider these not “caravans” but “mobile homes”. That’s some monsters I’d expect to be hauled around by film crews and circuses for permanent living on the move.
Well our Rv are way larger then that most of the time. That’s why the most popular models are self mobile
That’s about to change. After finding out the vast minority, if not all, car manufacturer were found cheating emissions tests, diesel car usage has been limited and production stopped, or will stop in the near future.
That’s about to change. After finding out the vast minority, if not all, car manufacturer were found cheating emissions tests, diesel car usage has been limited and production stopped, or will stop in the near future.
i’m aware of volkwagen and co. doing this; what other manufacturers have been caught?
They were all basically at it, it’s the only way the emissions and performance numbers could be hit.
does that mean no one’s been caught doing it?
No. Simply that Volkswagen, then another company was caught, then they went after all of them and they all admitted before they could look into each individual company.
Many have been caught. Not all of them have made a big deal about it.
You simply cannot build a compliant engine without cheating. The fight has gone to the courts to find out what kind of cheating is permissible…
Basically all of them have cheated. You needed good emission test results, but without having a miracle idea that evaded everyone else in the business you simply had no competitive results without cheating. That’s physics, and physics is a very hard and unforgiving ruler.
I had a 2005 Camry which broke down last year, so I replaced it with a 2015 Mazda 5. The towing section of the manual for the Camry said something along the lines of “Well, this car is not really intended for towing, but if you must use it for that, here’s what you have to do…”. For the Mazda, the manual just says that it is not recommended to use the car for towing at all.
The question isn’t “can you”, but “should you”.
An engine that’s always working at near it’s maximum capacity will fail long before an engine that’s working at a quarter of it’s capacity. Most people wouldn’t dream of constantly running their engine bouncing off the red line of rev limiter. The same applies to towing; if you frequently tow large, heavy loads (for instance, earth moving equipment), you want to get a vehicle that’s rated for much higher tonnage than the weight you’ll regularly be towing. Given that campers are usually very light weight (but only slightly more aerodynamic than a brick), you can get away with towing on in a car infrequently. You should probably not do it daily.
You may also find that it’s less fuel efficient to tow a heavy load in a small-ish car than the same load in a light truck.
(BTW - I’m generally opposed to taking vacations in this way. I prefer my vacations on a motorcycle, or on foot with a backpack. I’m not currently in the kind of shape I would need to be in in order to do bicycle camping.)
Edit: I don’t have a truck. It’s cheaper for me to rent one on the rare occasions that I need one than it is to buy one and deal with the associated costs of owenership. That said, the Home Depot rental trucks suck, because they’re solely RWD, and they have no grip on my road unless there’s a literal ton of weight in the back.
I live in a country where everyone buys used cars from western Europe and it’s semi-common knowledge among car people that you should avoid Dutch cars with tow hitches (and the used car yards that bring their cars from Holland tend to have the worst reputation).
That said, if you only tow heavy loads maybe a thousand, tow thousand kilometers a year, it doesn’t really matter. It’s prolonged heavy towing that kills the small car.
Anyway, my midsize diesel car can tow way more than I personally am legally allowed to and I prefer throwing a tent in the trunk to towing a camper, so my car sees maybe <500 km of light-weight towing a year and under a metric ton you can barely feel the hit to fuel efficiency or performance (because diesel torque is ridiculous)
Only very few people regularly pull caravans. I worked for one, but he a) sold caravans and b) had the car to pull them.
Nobody complains about big cars whilst they’re towing, and if they were doing it everyday you would see them… well… everyday towing, but they typically are not.
Fuel efficiency that you lose whilst towing you would gain on the other 99% of your kms.
(for instance, earth moving equipment)
That’s quite some reach.
Any time I’ve needed an earth mover, it was always delivered? Who’s out there picking up a earth movers themselves?
The people who deliver them?
Really? Home Depot and Sunbelt Tool Rental doesn’t deliver around here. You have to pick that shit up yourself, and they will check the gross towing weight before they’ll let you hook up. I’ve towed a wood chipper from Sunbelt with a Civic, and it was pretty much the maximum that the car would tow.
Sorry, when I hear earthmover I think backhoe, grader, skid steer, not wood chipper.
Regardless, sounds like your civic met the need instead of a RAM 2500 super-duty?
Well, except for the part where then engine skipped timing and died a terrible death few months later. So, I dunno, did it really meet my need? Or was the engine failure purely coincidental? I do know that the mountain roads around here are pretty rough on cars in general; towing at your max capacity while going up a steep grade probably isn’t very good for an engine.
Renting a truck would have been far, far cheaper than what I spent replacing the engine.
I don’t know your car, it’s possible. I’m not here to judge people on their needs analysis, I’m here to judge people for not doing a needs analysis.
The point is people should buy vehicles based on needs not wants. The chance of maybe towing a thing up a hill one time in a 15 year vehicle lifetime is probably not a satiasficing for a vehicle that’s primarily used to travel 8.7km each way for a commute and a 1.8km round trip for groceries 5.43 times per month. (Canadian figures).
![[image] Since many people seem to believe you can't tow with cars, here's roughly what dutch people end up doing on vacation.](https://feddit.de/pictrs/image/ea1db421-ccea-4e3d-af37-aec9b3e62de4.jpeg){kind=link}