Former democratic party activists are organizing Muslims and Arab-Americans in Swing states to vote against Biden with the demand that he support a ceasefire in Gaza.
I’ll allow them a little bit of electoralism this time.
“When you vote for the lesser of two evils what happens? You always get evil, and you always get less” - who knows but I heard it somewhere
Genocide Joe vs Trump is a debate over whether to drive off a cliff while following the speed limit or at 120 MPH.
The best possible argument you can make for Biden is that the left isn’t organized enough to be endorsing accelerationism
It’s not a real good one
perfect analogy
I remember reading something like that from one of the Witcher books from that one Pole writer.
Edit:
“Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all.”
― Andrzej Sapkowski, The Last Wish
The point of this quote by Geralt in the story is that Geralt is wrong and using it as an excuse to avoid taking action to protect innocent lives. The result of this stance of his is that he butchers several people in a public square and gets driven out of town and forever labeled “The Butcher of Blaviken.” Only a couple pages after this ‘evil is evil’ monologue he says, verbatim, “We have to choose the lesser evil!”
Good article. It’s not the main point but I liked this section:
The lie that Obama is Muslim was always code for “He’s Black.” But in 2008 liberals couldn’t say that they wouldn’t vote for someone who is Black. Post-racial anti-Blackness had to be more subtle. After seven years of the War on Terror, it was widely accepted that Muslims are subhuman and our lives disposable. So it was easy for people to simply say that they wouldn’t vote for someone who is Muslim.
It never occurred to me - though it’s obvious to me now - that all the accusations of Obama being a Muslim were really just the way white folks were able to launder their unwillingness to accept a black man as president. That’s why they doggedly held on to that belief despite how it was so obviously not true.
Eh, the people who kept bringing up that he was a muslim, born in kenya, etc were always hardcore chuds who had no problem being abhorrently racist.
That was the vast majority, yes. But plenty of Hillary primary supporters didn’t vote for Obama in the general. And we know plenty of conservative Democrats have, shall we say, some work to do on racial issues, even if they aren’t dressing up in white robes on the weekends. That Venn diagram is a circle.
It never occurred to me - though it’s obvious to me now - that all the accusations of Obama being a Muslim were really just the way white folks were able to launder their unwillingness to accept a black man as president.
I think Ta-Nehesi Coates wrote a couple of books about that
I know no one here will want to hear this. But that’s lazy thinking and revisionist history. He got elected twice. The same folks calling him Muslim and asking for his birth certificate are now chanting Let’s go Brandon and doing other horrible stuff.
I’m sure a percentage of people think he’s extra bad for being black, but they were going to hate him just as much for being liberal.
213,313,508 eligible voters in 2008, 131,407,000 voted, 95% of black voters for Obama, 59,948,323 went to McCain (a supermajority of them white) even after eight years of George Bush, when polled conservatives policies are highly unpopular with a supermajority of the population (whites included)
Race, demographics, and cultural identity have far more valence on the outcome of elections than ideological commitments, especially in a country with such poor political education
The supermajority of all voters are white.
The majority of Obama voters were white.
Conservatives in 2008 were almost exclusively white.
Race for sure played a factor, it always does. But it absolutely does not outweigh ideology.
Conservatives in 2008 were almost exclusively white
Exactly that’s my point, and the supermajority of non-whites voted for Obama, while the majority of white voters who voted went for McCain, if ideological commitment formed the core of election outcomes then that wouldn’t have been the case, and we would see a more even distribution among demographic groups
The majority of McCain and white Obama voters voted the way they did because Obama was black, the conservatives voted the way they did because he was liberal and to be liberal is to be black or support black causes, and white Obama voters (aside from the ones who genuinely didn’t care he was black) voted for him because voting for the first black president would’ve been a cultural signifier they could use as social capital in the more cosmopolitan spaces they inhabit
White Obama voters who voted a second time couldn’t have cared less about his ideological promises because he betrayed all of them in his first term
Holy shit that’s insane.
Go look at the graphs of the electorate before and after 2008. It is not wildly different.
A majority of people did not vote because of race.
You’re drawing very sweeping conclusions from one and a half data points.
Go look at the graphs of the electorate before and after 2008. It is not wildly different.
lmao yeah that just strengthens my point, otherwise if ideological commitments swayed voters then YOU have to explain why white Obama voters didn’t punish him for betraying those ideological commitments in his first term, it’s almost like demographics and cultural signifiers were more important than concrete ideology, and the need for cultural identification among white liberals only intensified between 2008 and 2012 after the mostly cultural conservative backlash against Obama and HIS Democratic Party, a backlash that surprise surprise found its expression in racial politics
A majority of people did not vote because of race.
What a profound argument, I’ve now changed my mind
Sorry sweatie, but Trump would commit even more genocide! Vote for diet genocide, Biden 2024!
I can tell ya that my DSA chapter says voting for Biden is a vote for democracy
The lesser evil argument for Biden is very weird to me because as a non-American it doesn’t materially seem better than Trump. Objectively it’s been equally bad if not worse, and while not all of that is due to particular features of Trump or the Dems, a think a decent amount is due to how viciously hawkish and shamelessly imperialist the Biden regime has been, from Ukraine to Israel and a lot more in between. Like on the international level I’d argue that Biden has been demonstrably more destructive.
The most convincing ‘lesser-evil’ argument seems to me to basically be that a Trump presidency would be worse for minorities, for immigrants, non-white people, and LGBT people. Now I agree that they would be more likely to introduce federal-level legislation if they could, but I also haven’t seen any real effort by the Biden gov to combat transphobic legislation by fascistic Republicans at the state or local level, or to do anything real for them for that matter. Again LGBT folks and racial minorities are a woke virtue-signalling marketing asset to be invested in for the Dems, as they base their electoral campaigns now no longer on class points, no longer appealing to working class interests (whereas the Republicans have positioned themselves as doing so), but instead appealing to those with college educations. I have comrades who argue that Trump would crack down harder on the left and make it more difficult to organize, but I’m not completely convinced by this. It’s not become easier under Biden.
In any event, I don’t know how people can make a non-nationalist lesser-evil argument once you’ve seen Biden literally go on stage with Bibi and give unconditional support to apartheid, settler-colonialism and ethinic cleansing.
Legitimately think it’s worse under Biden.
Stopped labor strikes, stopped covid relief (motherfucker still owes me $600), student debt relief is gone, roe is gone, anti Trans laws are way worse, inflation is slowing down but everything’s still twice what it cost 2 years ago.
Literally the only difference is when there’s a republican president republicans don’t do as much to actively pass speople off and dems pretend to care about progressive issues.
When there’s a dem president liberals just tell minorities and poor people ro stop complaining because it’s making them look bad and republicans do shit to whip up their base that democrats are completely unwilling to oppose.
roe is gone,
Ignoring all the other bullshit in your comment, I’m wondering what Biden had to do with a supreme court decision made by judges nominated by the former administration, when scotus decisions can’t be appealed or challenged? I’ll wait.
Biden had half a dozen good options for stopping this and did none of them. Restructuring the court, bullying the dems in Congress into passing a roe codifying law, declare a public health emergency, or open abortion clinics on federal lands. He did none of these, sadly, because Dems see Roe being overturned as a fundraising opportunity. All the women and children being harmed in the interim by government getting between them and their doctors be damned.
Perhaps the most frustrating attribute of the Dems is when they do control the majority of governmental branches, they still do nothing, complaining all the while that republicans will yell at them if they do, or the senate parliamentarian won’t let them, or whatever bs excuse to not fight for their voters. However, someone dares to challenge the status quo, you’ll never see a dem more vicious. It’s pathetic, gross, and disheartening.
my personal favorite is whenever the dems have a majority a group of conservatives sprout up in the ranks of the party to vote down laws with any degree of progressive policy
Ayoub also posted: “This onslaught on Gaza teaches us one VITAL lesson as Arabs and Muslims. The whole ‘seat at the table’ strategy is a FAILURE. Being token parts of the Democratic Party, ‘the inside game,’ can’t even deliver a Ceasefire on Gaza. It can’t even slow a Genocide of Palestinians enabled by Biden, Kamala Harris, and the ‘Diversity & Inclusion’ Democrats who throw Arab and Muslims under the same table they strove to sit at.”
Good lord, so the plan is to vote for Trump? The guy who has a pattern of simping for right wing authoritarian fuckheads like Nettanyahu?
Honestly, their efforts would be much better spent trying to get election reform like ranked choice voting up as local election issues in order to break the two party system’s kneecaps.
Did you read the article? They specifically say they won’t vote for him and would organize for a candidate that was willing to stand up to US Islamophobia. He’s not gonna vote for Trump.
And who exactly is simping for who? At least Donny and Bibi liked each other, Joe is the one pathetically prostrating himself for a guy who openly dislikes him.
Honestly, their efforts would be much better spent trying to get election reform like ranked choice voting up as local election issues in order to break the two party system’s kneecaps.
Congratulations on telling the uppity muslims how to best proceed with their struggle
Get fucked lib
did you miss last week where Biden/Dems were “simping for rightwing authoritarian fuckheads like Nettanyahu?”
The guy who has a pattern of simping for right wing authoritarian fuckheads like Nettanyahu?
This guy?
Me when I think I have the right to speak without investigating first
Good lord, so the plan is to vote for Trump? The guy who has a pattern of simping for right wing authoritarian fuckheads like Nettanyahu?
Biden has given Netanyahu and Zelensky countless billions of dollars. Trump would not have done anything differently.
Honestly, their efforts would be much better spent trying to get election reform like ranked choice voting up as local election issues in order to break the two party system’s kneecaps.
There is no “reform” to be had; the Democrats will never peaceably give up their power over the US and the world as a whole.
I can rank my choice of genocidal leaders. This is a civil society.
Exactly. Libs love to feel like they can just fix a rule and be saved.
Ranked choice won’t matter if the bourgeois still control the choices
the plan is not to vote at all.
I’m failing to understand this POV. Even if you think neither outcome is good why wouldn’t you do what minimal thing you can to keep the worse option from happening?
Materially all you are doing is helping the Democrats keep being shit because they believe they are entitled to the vote of every decent person on the basis of this lesser evilism. Breaking their base, even if it lets the Republicans win one cycle, would actually pressure concessions out of them.
Breaking their base, even if it lets the Republicans win one cycle
I appreciate what you’re saying, but its not resonating with me.
“This is the most important election of our lifetime” – yes, I know you all make fun of people for saying that, and I am mostly quoting it because I know I’ll get called out if I try to dance around the wording. But, that sentiment seems true to me based on what R’s have been getting up to lately. They seem poised to take over if they win one more cycle.
I appreciate your attempting to exercise self-awareness, but I am again asking you to step back and look at the bigger picture: Let’s say there is validity to the claim “This is the most important election of our lifetime.” I reject that claim, it seems to have no material basis, but let’s say it is real. What is this really saying? “This is the most important election you have encountered yet” This is a critical distinction that is never articulated because the simple fact of the matter is that what you are saying didn’t become a meme this cycle, it became a meme – being generous – in 2016 (less generous would put it in the mid-20th century). 2016 got this treatment, 2020 got this treatment, 2024 is getting this treatment, and can you tell me with a straight face that 2028 won’t be treated the same way?
So we have a pattern of crisis being proclaimed, where each one is said to be worse than the previous crises, and there is absolutely no model to stop it except by being so myopic you can’t see the future 3 inches past your nose. Let us say that it is “the most important election of our lifetimes [so far],” that’s because it beat out the previous crises, but the ones after will surely be worse. Even giving what I view as an unreasonable amount of leeway to your hypothesis, the calculus of risking Trump winning in order to actually make positive change and develop a means to break this vicious cycle of ever-greater threat of catastrophe. You are sinking and debating that we should spend forever slowing how quickly we sink instead of trying to get out of the water.
I appreciate your attempting to exercise self-awareness
Lol! I appreciate your well-crafted backhanded compliment :)
To lay it bare, why do I think this election (and the previous two, and the next) are so important? I think there are two major crises facing us simultaneously. One is the climate crisis. The other is the web of corruption, subversion of truth, weaponization and/or crippling of institutions, and legalized bribery – a nebulous but worsening condition that I believe started with Reagan but has continued relatively unabated for 50 years and took off like a rocket under Trump and has metastasized to all levels of government, and shows no signs of stopping.
In the case of climate, every year that passes without remediation is bringing us closer to hell on earth and there may be no going back. In the case of corruption etc - US democracy is eroded faster and faster if unaddressed and it might already be too late to save it. You might even agree with me there – except on the point that it makes each upcoming election “important”, of course.
IMO these are two different forms of existential crisis and until they are addressed – seriously addressed, not just assuaged out of the public consciousness – the conditions are getting worse and worse and the possibility of resolving them shrinks. Every other problem we face takes a back seat to these order-of-magnitude-larger issues, and no meaningful progress can be made on the lesser issues.
So I don’t think it’s much of an exaggeration to say each election is the “most important of our lifetime”. With the magnitude of these crises, why wouldn’t the importance of these choices be outsized compared to other points in recent history?
In all honesty, I think the most important presidential election of my life was 2000. Not only do I believe that the country could have been a leader on climate issues under Gore, Bush’s War on Terror response would’ve been different/less-bad (maybe not, I’m sure folks around here will argue), we also would’ve had a completely different supreme court and all that comes with that.
I probably have a few more things I could add to that paragraph but to continue with my attempted self-awareness, I realize now that I’m probably just spewing standard lib talking points that don’t bear repeating, so I’ll knock it off.
You are sinking and debating that we should spend forever slowing how quickly we sink instead of trying to get out of the water.
Good analogy, and you’re 100% right. I won’t deny it because that is exactly what I am arguing for and I’m trying to understand the other viewpoint(s). IMO the longer we have (i.e. the slower we sink), the more time we have to figure out how to get out of the water, or how to execute the get-out-of-the-water plan. But also, the impression that I get from this community - the one I’m trying to get clarity on throughout this discussion - is that we should stop treading water and get on with the sinking already. Or, that shouting “get out of the water” constitutes a plan of action. (Note: this sounds overly dismissive, and I don’t mean it that way - following along the analogy brought me here)
After a few mishaps I’ve now learned to write my responses in a different editor so lemmy-web doesn’t eat them, and when I pasted this from my text editor into lemmy I realized this is my longest response yet. So, I want to say thank you again for the spirited discussion and your patience with me throughout. Hope you’re having a good day despite (what I assume is) an exasperating online discussion!
Your example of the 2000 presidential election should give you a bit of insight into why voting at a presidential level is pointless. Gore won, but the Supreme Court interfered and put the guy they wanted in place.
There will always be some equivalent force to prevent any real change at the presidential level. See also the DNC rat-fucking Bernie in 2016 and 2020 and the DNC pied-pipering in trump in 2016
The other is the web of corruption, subversion of truth, weaponization and/or crippling of institutions, and legalized bribery – a nebulous but worsening condition that I believe started with Reagan but has continued relatively unabated for 50 years and took off like a rocket under Trump
This web of corruption you are refering to is capitalism and liberal democracy itself. It did not begin with Reagan, its always been this way. What you view as it “starting” with Reagan is the ascendence of neoliberalism which is still just capitalism and liberal democracy.
The idea that any of this became worse with Trump is ludicrous and massively ahistorical. You could say it became more visible because libs chose to examine it more closely and because Trump is more transparently corrupt. But its hard to argue he’s more corrupt than other admins lor politicians. The main reason Trump was not impeached on emoluments was because congressional dems are guilty of the same shit.
IMO the longer we have (i.e. the slower we sink), the more time we have to figure out how to get out of the water, or how to execute the get-out-of-the-water plan.
I think this is your stumbling block to understanding our position. Sink-more-slowly by unconditionally voting for one of the people pushing you into the water is not a plan. We already know how to get out of the water. Other people have done it, other countries are not in the water because they’ve had revolutions against liberal democracy. And that is the problem - liberal democracy can not stop this, because liberal democracy is the sustem which maintains capitalism and the oppression of the ruling class.
If they want my vote they’ve got to do something to earn it
I was willing to vote for Bernie Sanders in 2020 for harm reduction reasons. He was the compromise. Dems rejected it.
If neither party represents your interests, what’s your vote doing? Making sure that they can both ignore your interests even more?
The US two-party system is a complete and abject failure of democracy.
If a fascist finds it important to vote, I intend my vote to counteract theirs.
It’s less important that someone “represents my interests” than it is that overall suffrage and equity is reduced at a slower rate. It’s sad, but that’s what it seems we’re up against in the modern republican party.
The two party system IS a failure, and I have a laundry list(*) of electoral changes I want throughout the country, some of which are already in place in a few voting districts including my own. How is not voting going to improve any of that?
(* If you’re interested I can add them tomorrow when I’m more sober and at a keyboard)
If you’re forced to vote for a party to avoid the collapse of your democracy, that’s no longer a democracy. That’s a one-party state with a few more steps.
That’s a fair point - in that event, is it still not an improvement to keep that bare-bones separation from a one-party state rather than run headlong into it? Worded differently- if there is ostensibly a revolution brewing, would the revolutionaries benefit from the additional time granted by the dysfunction of the almost-one-party ? Or are we talking accelerationism?
I guess I’ll also ask, at what point of a democracy-in-decline is it “ok” to vote for a person or party en masse to turn that decline around? As an analogy I’m thinking of like, a car teetering on a cliff. This sounds like sitting in the car with arms crossed saying “you’re just a few steps from falling to your death, no point in getting out of the car now”. Sorry if that’s hyperbolic; I’m trying to give a clear example and that’s the first thing that came to mind.
Or are we talking accelerationism?
This is, in my view, the real issue. Statistically, anti-electoralism is in no way functionally different than accelerationism. Both have the exact same outcomes as right-wingers, especially the far-right vote consistently and toe the line.
I’ve not seen an ounce of evidence that accelerationism actually works to achieve its stated goal, which on some level makes me suspect that the whole lot of anti-electoralism and accelerationism is encouraged by authoritarians on the far-right to further disenfranchise any ideas left of center from having representation. That and there’s real harm to LGBTQ+ folks, indigenous peoples, minorities, and their allies caused by empowering the far-right more.
Might that lead to an actual revolution at some point? Maybe. There’s not yet any evidence to say that it will that I’ve seen in historical data, however. And I cannot ethically agree with “end justifies the means” thinking as it nearly always results in increased suffering for workers and “common” people to whom I owe my allegiance.
Now to wait for my anarchist self to be flamed as a “shitlib”. (I hope not because this is supposed to be a leftist unity instance but, it’s happened to me before over misunderstandings).
overall suffrage and equity is reduced at a slower rate.
If you are doing this at the expense of not taking even a chance at stopping the reduction of equity, you are in fact helping the reduction of equity even as you are slowing it.
The vote is performative.
At this point, you’re voting for the window dressing.
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Which bill was it where dems legalized gay marriage?
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Which bill was it where they protected abortion rights?
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Which bill was it where they protected the right to marry other races?
etc.
Basing your record on a few supreme court decisions, which can (and have) get overturned is fatuous.
Aside from taking a slightly less shitty stance on things, you’ll find that for the most part, the dems, when they had full government control, did fuck all to enshrine minority rights, provide a living wage, or make steps towards universal healthcare.
I used to think like this, I’m 50 and voted like my life depended on it since '92. All I’ve seen since then, are conditions getting worse and worse, regardless of who was in office. I bought Obama’s schtick and watched as he did half assed measures and frittered a majority away.
And by the way “b-b-but conservative democrats” line has been used as far back as I can remember. If you consistently see members of a party blocking vital legislation over and over and over again. Maybe that shit is performative too.
This country needs a reset.
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Look if Genocide Joe wants my vote, he could try doing something to earn it instead of just saying “I’m not Trump”.
I can agree Joe is a genocider and still vote for him instead of trump*.
Trump is happy to apply his genocidal ideals to his own countrymen. Biden, less so - mostly directed outward/foreign. If my vote has influence on this matter, even slightly, who am I going to choose?
Moreover, I’m not pretending my vote is some sacred gift I can only give to the most perfect candidate. Rather, I am happy if my trash vote can negate a even more-trash vote.
* I predict being the_dunk_tank material and I accept my fate.
Also I want to say, I am really trying to understand this. even if I say wierd/bad faith/something stuff it’s an accident and I want to understand the point of view of “anti electoralism” – if that’s the right term.
I can agree Joe is a genocider and still vote for him instead of trump
I can’t. It should be an easy red line to have
Maybe this is what’s hard for me to understand about the anti-electoral stance. From what I’ve gathered in this thread, my vote is simultaneously completely worthless and inffective, yet also the most precious thing I should only give to the most worthy.
I’m having a hard time figuring out how to word this comment to sound less snarky, but I am legitimately interested in your thoughts on this dichotomy. Or if you think this is not a good interpretation of your+other commenter’s comments, I’ll be happy to be corrected. Thanks.
From what I’ve gathered in this thread, my vote is simultaneously completely worthless and inffective, yet also the most precious thing I should only give to the most worthy.
I think of it like this. In an ideal society (or at least vaguely functional political system), your vote would and should be precious. Yet in our shithole nation, this precious thing of yours is forced to be given to one of two genocidal evils.
is the face of a party who pretends like they’ll take your vote and do something useful. Stand up for minorities, do something about climate change, maybe reduce the mass social murder in this country, or just do fucking anything at all. Yet time and again, they only make things worse. If your vote is precious and should only be given to the most worthy, why give it to a racist, senile, sex offending, warhawk?And we all know that to vote for anyone other than the two candidates is a useless gesture, accomplishing nothing. So in practical terms, voting in this nation is voting for one of
this guy’s two masks. Why fucking bother?Edit to add-
I can agree Joe is a genocider and still vote for him instead of trump
Why? Why the shitting fuck would you decide “This genocider is deserving of my vote”. That is a physical manifestation of your thought that this man should lead our country. You’re not just passively thinking it, you’re taking an active step to make sure that happens. If a daycare was trying to choose between John Wayne Gacy or Albert Fisch to be its director, it would be fucking insane to give it serious thought and then vote on one of them. You should demand to know why this is the choice in the first place, and not shrug and vote for one of them like a browbeaten little b----
It’s pretty simple, if your vote is for a ‘lesser evil’ that is a negative choice proposition, hardly worthy of the word ‘choice’ or ‘democracy’. Two bad choices are still two bad choices, even if one is marketed as slightly less bad. The entire Dem strategy for like decades now has been this prisoners dilemma proposition. They never provide federal protection enshrined in law because that would take away the leverage of this strategy. The only way to break out of this pattern is to really threaten it directly by not acquiescing to it like good little liberals. That is why you have cognitive dissonance over this topic. The social pressure of ‘lesser evil’ is so deeply embedded in the liberal worldview that any questioning of it is adjacent to being a terrible right-winger.
The cultural war divide benefits Dems, so they do everything to perpetuate it instead of reconciling it. You need to comprehend this to have a realistic understanding of US political economy.
Trump is happy to apply his genocidal ideals to his own countrymen. Biden, less so - mostly directed outward/foreign. If my vote has influence on this matter, even slightly, who am I going to choose?
Biden has Trump beat on deportations, police funding, military funding, and he’s completely unwilling to stand for abortion right, trans rights, and debt forgiveness
And now he’s a genocider, so what actually are we supposed to be afraid of from Trump? At least with Trump most of the media and 50% of the establishment will oppose him, unlike with Biden where the 90% of the media backs him and 80% of the establishment cosigns his genocidal ideals
I fear Biden and his ilk more than I fear Trump and his incompetent clown show, because at least with Trump I can be confident most of the country will oppose him
I can’t even be confident that so-called “leftists” will oppose Biden, because here you are arguing we should vote for a man who’s committing genocide
I’m not going to defend Biden or dems in general, but part of your point that I want to address directly is this:
completely unwilling to stand for abortion right, trans rights, and debt forgiveness
While he and other dems are “unwilling to stand”, they are also not actively working against those or certain other causes. If everyone who believes in these causes chooses to not vote because they’re not being addressed, republicans will win and do their damndest to stomp all over marginalized groups even more. This is why I vote (against them).
at least with Trump I can be confident most of the country will oppose him
Oppose him verbally, sure. But that has no effect, and actually sometimes emboldens him and other R’s as they do stuff to “own the libs”. Why is opposing him like this good, but opposing him with my vote bad?
I think my stumbling block in trying to understand this POV is that I do believe there is inherently a difference between voting for someone and voting against someone else. I’d rather not freely cede anything to those I consider to be worse. I understand you may see the outcome as “the same” and for some people, it is. But I do believe that there are people where a difference between the parties exists and is important in their lives.
To address your last point, I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything, certainly not against their conscience. I’m trying to understand why walking away from elections is (or at least seems to be) the general consensus amongst this community.
Thanks for your thoughts.
While he and other dems are “unwilling to stand”, they are also not actively working against those or certain other causes. If everyone who believes in these causes chooses to not vote because they’re not being addressed, republicans will win and do their damndest to stomp all over marginalized groups even more. This is why I vote (against them).
Why did you zoom in on the “completely unwilling to stand for abortion right, trans rights, and debt forgiveness” part, but completely ignore the “Biden has Trump beat on deportations, police funding, military funding” part? BIDEN IS DOING his damndest to stomp all over marginalized groups, even more then Trump when it comes to those specific areas of contention
Also not being willing to stand up to republicans in terms of abortion rights IS the same thing as “actively working against those or certain other causes”, in fact false alliance is worse than outright hostility, because it confuses and disarms marginalized people who look for allies
Oppose him verbally, sure. But that has no effect
Really? An entire country with every liberal and leftist org united against Trump and the only opposition would be verbal? And I thought I was a doomer
Why is opposing him like this good, but opposing him with my vote bad?
Because your vote strengthens the Ratchet Effect, as we’ve seen with Biden’s rightward shift
I think my stumbling block in trying to understand this POV is that I do believe there is inherently a difference between voting for someone and voting against someone else
If the person you’re voting FOR is doing the same or worse things than the person you’re voting AGAINST, then your politics are frankly incoherent and insincere, and you’ll end up valuing the lives of certain people over the lives of others, and at that point you might as well just become a republican
I want to understand the point of view of “anti electoralism” – if that’s the right term.
That’s relatively straightforward. Elections are a distraction, they redirect energy into a form the political order can digest without changing. The more you invest in them the less you are putting into alternatives that are more useful. Vote, if you want, it might do marginal good in an infinitesimal scale, but agonizing over voting is playing into a system that exists to funnel all your energy into itself.
Vote, if you want, it might do marginal good in an infinitesimal scale, but agonizing over voting is playing into a system that exists to funnel all your energy into itself.
I guess this is where I’m lost. They mail me ballots, I fill them out and mail them back. It’s almost the least I can do. If every person opposed to fascism did the same, I believe fascism’s encroachment would be slowed.
I don’t know what you mean. Democrats keep winning by the numbers. Fascism is still encroaching. It’s been encroaching my entire life, and Republicans have won the popular vote once in that time. People do vote. And this still happens.
I’m not telling you not to, I keep saying it’s fine to do if you feel like it. So is watching a movie or getting a snack at 3 in the morning. You do you. But don’t act like it’s fixing anything. It clearly isn’t. That’s why you get to keep doing it.
If every person opposed to fascism did the same, I believe fascism’s encroachment would be slowed.
That should be true. Its totally sound reasoning. Except the system in the US is designed to frustrate popular will and facilitate minority rule. Individuals simply voting their conscious will never solve anything within this system.
Liberal democracy and the spectacle of the election, is a perfect vehicle for the rise of fascism, but it actively hinders what is needed to stop it
Why would they ever change if people keep supporting them?
It seems to me that when it comes to the late late late point of who to vote for president, the time to change them has passed.
I’m my mind, the time for a “change” vote comes during primaries. When it comes to the official vote (especially presidential), I vote for the least fascist candidate… who has a chance at winning, I suppose.
And there lies the rub. Bernie was ratfucked during the primaries so that Joe could get the nomination. The machine would rather be in control and lose than let the popular candidate win.
Yes, I voted for Bernie in the primaries and then Biden in the general. I’m pissed about how Biden became the candidate. I still voted to negate a Trump vote. What am I missing?
That your unconditional support is the sort of thing that makes the ratfucking a viable strategy. Just look at that fucking interview where a reporter points out that most voters don’t want Biden to run again and he counters that they also said they would vote for him if he was the general candidate. This whipped attitude is openly being cited by these monsters as being what enables them even among populations that hate them. They have long given the game away and you keep fucking falling for it irrespective!
you’re going to be voting anyways because local elections are incredibly important and i know your ass is voting in your local elections. might as well take the 10 seconds while you’re there to vote blue in a swing/red state or vote third-party socialist in a blue state.
No
