• force@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      49
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      English phonology, American English dialects’ (and other dialects’) /r/ is usually pronounced retracted, post-alveolar/pre-palatal (usually bunched/molar), transcribed something like [ɹ̠ᶹ], so it causes alveolar consonants in the same cluster to retract/palatalize, usually into a post-alveolar affricate ([d͡ʒ] – the “j” sound for voiced stop /d/, [t͡ʃ] – the “ch” sound for voiceless stop /t/, [ʃ] – the “sh” sound for voiceless fricative /s/). The term would be assimilation (of place of articulation).

      “Dragon” /dræ.gən/ -> [dɹ̠æ.ɡɪ̈n] -> [d̠ʒɹ̠æ.ɡ(ɪ̈)n]

      You can see the same thing with words like “tree” /tri/ -> [t̠ʃɹ̠i] or even “street” /strit/ -> [ʃt̠ɹ̠it]

      Would explain simpler but can’t, break ends now, just know its because consonant pronounced in different place in mouth is conforming to being pronounced in the same place in mouth as other consonant that is right beside it (like with “in-” vs “im-”, “impractical”, which notably isn’t “inpractical”, or “incandescent” which notably isn’t “imcandascent”, or “indecisive” etc. etc.)

        • Stoneykins [any]@mander.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          25
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          They made almost no attempt to put it in layman’s terms, which means as an explanation it is not very helpful unless you already know enough about the topic to not need to ask about it in the first place. Correct and unhelpful. But I guess they were busy.

            • ALostInquirer@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              What would be a good place to start with IPA? Going off Wikipedia’s pages on the matter is like Force’s comment, well-intentioned but not a great intro as you flit back & forth across the tables making sense of it.

              I also vaguely remember a similar experience with physical dictionaries, which I think tend to have some kind of IPA (or related) pronunciation guide in them. It’s been awhile since I’ve used one though, hence the foggy memory, and some online dictionaries seem to have given up on showing IPA pronunciation guides.

              • force@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                this small 3-part video series is a good place to start:

                part 1: https://youtu.be/xMEFr7ghMTg?si=08I3vCSiwQC4Iuve part 2: https://youtu.be/J3IO5K5ZGB4?si=u2SaJx6gv45tsI1V part 3: https://youtu.be/jkfSA4_DCfs?si=JlMkiv75njWzbG5k

                then you can just look at transcriptions in a language you speak, and/or look at the chart and try to pronounce some of the sounds (good luck for that one lmao). a good place to look/ask is r/asklinguistics, r/linguistics, r/conlangs on reddit, they’re pretty active

                one thing i should clarify now is the convention you usually see for notation using the IPA – there’s a difference between /broad/ transcription and [narrow] transcription.

                you see, the IPA can be used in many different ways – it can be used phonemically, or phonetically, or sometimes in other ways.

                Phonetically means the symbols represent phones. Phones are distinct sounds, they are a specific way of articulating/pronouncing/using your articulators (articulators being the things you use to pronounce stuff, e.g. your tongue or lips or vocal cords). Usually you will represent more phonetic transcription using brackets [ ] (narrow transcription).

                Phonemically means the symbols represent phonemes. Usually more phonemic transcriptions are represented with slashes / / (broad transcription). Phonemes are sounds that carry meaning in a language – i.e., a phoneme is something that if you replace with another phoneme, speakers perceive that as a different word. A phoneme is generally made up of multiple phones, called allophones, all of which are different phonetically but the speaker of the language perceives them as the same thing – in fact the thing I described in this thread is a great example of that!

                “Dragon” in English is made up of six phonemes, /ˈdræ.gən/ – /d/ the “d” sound in English, /r/ (also written /ɹ/) the “r” sound in English, /æ/ the “a” sound in “cat” or “ask” in English, /g/ the “g” sound, /ə/ the schwa sound/reduced vowel as in the “a” in “about” or the “u” in “medium”, /n/ the “n” sound. /ˈ/ means the following syllable has primary stress (in English that would usually mean pronouncing it with fortis – louder/more tense, and with a higher pitch than the rest of the syllables). /./ is a syllable boundary, it demarcates the end of the previous syllable and the beginning of the next syllable. /ˌ/ would be secondary stress. Often times the primary stress symbol is omitted if it’s in the first syllable.

                When you write /dræ.gən/, that’s kind of a “template” made of phonemes that are good for describing a wide variety of dialects’ sounds – it’d be very cumbersome to try to write an extremely narrow, phonetic transcription of dozens of dialects’ pronunciations every time you want to describe a word; using broad transcription, you can then leave it to the reader to further break it down into more specific, precise transcriptions whenever they care about a specific dialect.

                So let’s break it down – in my dialect, /r/ is pronounced as a post-alevolar approximant – that is, pronouncing with a continuous flow of air with the tongue behind the alveolar ridge (the bump on the roof of your mouth behind your teeth) and not touching the roof of the mouth as to not cause as much obstruction. This would be transcribed as [ɹ̠] or [ɹ˗], the symbol for the alveolar approximant plus the diacritic for retraction (pronouncing further behind in the mouth). A lot of the times, the /r/ sound in a lot of dialects may be transcribed as [ɻ] – retroflex, generally meaning post-alveolar/pre-palatal with a tongue curled upwards, or even [ɹ̈] which uses the “centralized” diacritic to represent “bunched r” which is post-alveolar/pre-palatal and has the sides of the tongue spread out towards the molars and a strange-looking orientation/curl of the tongue called “bunching” (a sound found in very few languages, I believe only English and Dutch, and which is the realization in my dialect). You can use more symbols to be even more precise, e.g. add [ʷ] (labialized) or [ᶹ] (labiovelarized) since English /ɹ/ is often pronounced with labial constriction (constriction/tenseness using both lips) or labiovelar constriction (using the bottom lip and upper teeth).

                So right off the bat, you can change it to [dɹ̠æ.ɡən]. The /d/ forms a consonant cluster with the /r/, which means it’s pronounced with no vowels or pauses in between them – since the [ɹ̠] is post-alveolar, it influences consonants in the proximity which have a nearby/relatively close place of articulation to shift towards / assimilate to its place of articulation. In a lot of dialects, this causes /dɹ̠/ to simply become [d̠ɹ̠], with both of them being post-alveolar. But in my speech, it goes even further and the /d/ affricates into [d̠͡ʒ] called the voiced post-alveolar affricate which is the “j” sound. Often a change like this is called “palatalization” because the consonant shifts towards a palatal pronunciation (palatal referring to the hard palate, the place of articulation of /j/ the palatal approximant which is the “y” sound in English), in this case becoming pre-palatal [dʒ]. But you shan’t confuse this with the other use of “palatalized/palatalization”, which is when a sound is pronounced with partial constriction at the (hard) palate, often transcribed with superscript /ʲ/ following the consonant (e.g. /kʲ/), although often times a palatalized consonant does shift towards a palatal pronunciation.

                So then we have [d̠͡ʒɹ̠æ.ɡən]. Lastly, in my dialect /ə/ in certain contexts behind consonants often becomes [ɪ] – a near-close near-front vowel, similar to the “i” in “bit” or “industry” – or [ɪ̈] sometimes called “schwi” which is similar but more centralized.

                So finally we have [d̠͡ʒɹ̠æ.ɡɪ̈n] or even more specifically [ˈd̠͡ʒɹ̠ᶹæ.ɡɪ̈n]. That would be an accurate way to phonetically transcribe how I say “dragon”.

                Some speakers may take reducing the /ə/ even further and delete it entirely, instead pronouncing the last syllable as [gn̩] – the line under the “n” meaning it’s syllabic, which means that it’s the nucleus of the syllable (the nucleus being the center of/only necessary part of the syllable, where a vowel would usually be), pronouncing the second syllable with no vowel. Then, you might see even more change with speakers assimilating the “n” to the place of articulation of the “g”, making it a velar (pronounced at the velum, also called the soft palate) nasal, which would make the last syllable [gŋ̍].

                And you would perceive all this as the word “dragon”, even if you pronounce it differently than I do. That’s the beauty of language. You might use different phones in the same context as me, but at the end of the day they’re the allophones of the same phonemes.

                Now you may ask, how the hell do linguists type this stuff conveniently? The answer is, they don’t, it can be a pain in the ass to find a tool to conveniently type for linguistics because there’s just so many symbols, often times you use something like an online IPA typing tool or google gboard on android.

            • Stoneykins [any]@mander.xyz
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              12
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              I understood it, after I googled a lot of what they said. And I’m not trying to give them shit, they made an effort to be helpful, it just wasn’t really.

                • Stoneykins [any]@mander.xyz
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  9
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  I mean the quality of an explanation is a matter of opinion. I already admitted it was a technically correct explanation, but I stand by my opinion. You can disagree but have failed to convince me to think otherwise.

      • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Okay, I think I get it. When I say “dr-” the r is made with the tip of my tongue just behind my front teeth, but when I say “jr-” (like in badger), the r is made with the middle of my tounge in the middle of my mouth. Neat!

      • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        I love seeing linguists on Lemmy. Wish we had a bigger community.

        To put it in layman’s terms just focus on explaining that J is often [d͡ʒ] which already has a D sound in it.

    • Sagifurius@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      7
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      I’m thinking it’s a regional thing and this guy is from my general region, it’s totally a thing out here. The letter “T” is really only useful on paper, people use “D” when they speak for the most part for “T” (except for T’s followed by an “h”), and “J” is any “D” when followed by an “r”. Side note, i found it jarring when I was younger and saw a Superman cartoon for the first time, and all the characters were pronouncing “Luthor” as “Luthor”, not “Luther”

      • kase@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Haha same here. And to add onto the Luthor bit, everyone I know pronounces “-or” and “-er” words as “-ir”. Pretty much everybody agrees it sounds stupid, but nobody has the power to stop it.

        • Sagifurius@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I mean, we don’t think it sounds stupid, it’s just normal. I’d not have noticed if i hadn’t spent so long abroad, where people though my accent was peculiar, and later laughed often when they’d hear my voice revert halfway through overheard phone calls home. That and owning a bar in my home region and often listening to the wildly different accents people rolling through. Englishmen berating me for my pronunciation of words like “Wilstshire” and “Cheshire”, “Jaguar”, “Brown Sauce” while they order a Kokanee but pronounce it “Cocainee”

    • isthingoneventhis@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Pretend like you’re french: j’ragon. It’s the second G in garage or however you would say au jou sauce.

      eta: if you’re pronouncing dragon and jragon the same, I’m really concerned and alarmed.

          • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            Yeah if I slow down and pronounce it with intention, they’re different. In normal speech though, it’s basically “jragon”

        • isthingoneventhis@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Absolutely not. Am American, so I’m gonna go on a limb and assume most of my friends would also probably pronounce it similarly.

          The way you say Jra-gon and Dra-gon is completely different in most accents on the West coast. I’m very confident in that.

          I think the Midwest would probably say it pretty samsies because they’re not emphasizing the first letter: jRa-gun / dRa-gun or jra-Gn / dra-Gn. Probably gets lost in the sauce a little.

          Idk about East Coast, but tbh it probably is closer to Midwesterners dropping consonants and shit so who knows.

        • isthingoneventhis@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          It was more like “french” how Americans think french is, sadly not actual french. It was to overemphasize the starting sound, since sometimes it’s hard to isolate sounds and move them around like that (mouth position wise) when you don’t commonly have other words that start with those sounds.

  • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    37
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    1 year ago

    How I wish for the day English decides to upend everything and go phonetic with a truncated alphabet and word modernization.

    We’d then go to World Standard Time. It’s 13:00 everywhere, not just in specific time zones. We then go to a Year 12023 Human Era International Fixed calendar.

    • usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      22
      ·
      1 year ago

      I’m with you for the alphabet and human era, but what’s the thing about timezones? We’d still have to keep track of each area’s normal waking/business hours, but it’d be less standardized and harder to remember unless there’s something I’m missing.

      • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        17
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        The time zone thing means if the time on your clock reads 00:00 hours, it’s 00:00 hours everywhere.

        That means if I say I have a meeting at 14:00 with someone in China while I live in the USA, there’s no conversion. It’s 14:00 everywhere. Every clock reads the same. I know when to be on the call.

        All it does is change what time people arbitrarily ‘Get up’, ‘Fall asleep’, ‘start school’ etc.

        Say we arbitrarily say 00:00 is what ‘midnight’ would be in Britain at the Prime Meridian.

        That means nothing really changes for Britain. But in Central Time USA, 00:00 means it’s when we’re just starting dinner.

        No daylight savings times anywhere. Work places can set their own work times however they want. Nobody gets confused about having to convert time to different time zones for logistics which is the biggest benefit. If the ISS says it’ll be over New York City at 13:37, I’ll know exactly when to turn on my HAM radio.

        I’d wake up at 13:00, get breakfast, be into work at 14:00. Get home at 22:00, etc.

        • R0cket_M00se@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          22
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          You’ve literally just shifted the problem, those two businessmen now have to both figure out what hour their daily cycle starts on, to assess if they will be free or not during the time. The idea of “business hours” would just be “so what hours on the 24h clock are you ‘at work’ at?'”

          Same problem, different calculation.

          • evranch@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            6
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            Except when you lived in that zone you’d instinctively know the local hours within a week of the change. So you just need to tell the other guy “I’m working from 0300 to 1100 tomorrow, when are you free?” Without worrying which time zone to reference.

            It also would give a path to abolishing DST, since the main reason it still exists is “because other places so it”. Using a global time would allow local areas to implement DST or not based on their own preference, without affecting anyone else. I believe this would quickly lead to most places abolishing it.

            Note that I live in Saskatchewan, one of the few DST-free zones in the world (well actually permanent DST, as we joined the time zone to our west) and it’s annoying that the rest of the world is always goofing around with their clocks. It’s one of those literally pointless traditions from the days of gas lamps.

          • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            That is about as simplistic as a model as I can possibly give… now imagine the logistics of that bullshit when dealing with multiple time zones and actual transit times lol.

            You can lament the fact that you’re trying to be kind and figure out a good time for a call in such a situation when there’s NEVER going to be a good one anyway.

            With this, it takes out EVERY extra timezone calculation for shipping, receiving, internet clocks, code regarding time difference variables. SO MUCH.

            • evranch@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              1 year ago

              code regarding time difference variables

              Ugh, I HATE the pointless code required by the stupid time locales, DST, and how many languages force you to play along with it all when all you really wanted was an emulated hardware RTC so you could schedule a task to run 10 minutes from now.

        • usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          14
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          There’d still be “timezones” where the divisions on what times everyone lives by are drawn, right? Like, in this state business hours are 14:00 to 22:00, and over at this other place it’s 00:00 to 08:00. For simplicity and commerce those boundaries would likely look very much like timezones…

          You’ll still need to convert to the local time like we do now in order to know what part of the day that time is, but instead of doing that conversion once, you’ll then you do it for all sorts of things and keep track of all the different times everything is in that other place too. Currently, you can look up the time it is somewhere (or add/subtract a number of hours if you’re old-school) and when you see it’s 8am, you know it’s morning there. If there are no timezones, knowing it’s 8am doesn’t actually tell you anything anymore.

          • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            6
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            The point is that if I say 6 p.m., you don’t know what that means for Mexico, and South Africa, and Malaysia anyway. Not only that, but the vast majority of the world that depends on those times don’t care if it’s 1st shift’s lunchtime. The world runs 24/7. It doesn’t just run from dawn til dusk.

            Any of this ‘extra step’ calculation you’re imagining is something people already do needlessly. This way those ‘time zones’ don’t matter.

            Train ships from NewYork at 1:00 a.m. and arrives at destination at 7:00 a.m., it then gets offloaded and trucked to Walmart at 11:00 a.m.

            Congrats, no having to compensate for time zone differences. A=B=C

            Not A=B-1 back to B+1 because you happen to ship over an arbitrary time zone line.

            • LwL@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              5
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              And also, not everyone even has the same schedules. USA has common “9-5” office jobs, in germany people more commonly start at 8. So even with timezones you still need the schedule adjustment to a degree.

              I play online video game tournaments with players globally, one person will complain about having to play at 11 because it’s so early and would rather play at 0, someone else complains that 16 is too late and would rather play at 7. And even with many people in that community being very experienced with timezone conversion, they still occasionally mix something up.

              One single global time would just be better. But I also brought it up once on reddit and got pretty much the same reactions.

      • CoggyMcFee@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        12
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Plus a bunch of people would have the day turn over into the next day in the middle of the work day, which would be pretty inconvenient.

        • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          1 year ago

          How so? Becky, I need you on that zoom call on Wednesday, 00:30 with our distributor Carlos in Mexico, the tax agent Amahle in South Africa, and our ship Captain who’s currently in Malaysia.

          No confusion. Everyone knows what time they need to turn on the PC.

          No conversions for PC times, no shipping time charts, none of it.

          • CoggyMcFee@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            11
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            You don’t see an inconvenience living in a place where a restaurant’s hours are

            Wed 9pm - Thu 7am

            Thu 9pm - Fri 6am

            Fri 9pm - Sat 9am

            And it seems perfectly fine to have it be ambiguous when you say something is tomorrow if you mean after lunch or after you sleep?

            You can’t think of any clerical, banking, or technical inconveniences with having things carry over into the next day in the middle of the day?

            • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Yes… just like it is now lol. You’re telling me you can instantly convert what time 6 p.m. is for Mexico, South Africa, And Malaysia is?

              Can you? Congrats, you’ve already done your ‘extra step’ calculation anyway lol.

              • CoggyMcFee@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                10
                ·
                1 year ago

                With time zones, if it’s 10am where you are and you need to talk to someone somewhere else in the world, you look up their time zone and see what time it is there, and you know if it’s 3pm that they are probably still at work, and if it’s 1am there then they are sleeping, and so on.

                If you don’t have time zones and you just know it’s also 10am there, what do you look up to quickly know whether they are likely working, eating, sleeping in that locution? Do you look up when sunset is in that city and then check its latitude and the time of year so you can estimate where they probably are in their day?

      • ornery_chemist@mander.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        aɪ noː jɚ ˈbiːɪŋ fəˈsiːʃəs, bʌt ˈɪŋglɪʃ ˈvɑʊəlz ɛsˈpɛʃəli kən biː ə ˈɹiːəl ˈklʌstɚfʌk. ɪf ə wɚd ɪz tə biː ˌjunɪˈvɚsəli ˈɹɛkəgnaɪzd baɪ ɪts ˈspɛlɪŋ, ðɛn ðə ˈspɛlɪŋ wɪl nɑt ˈfeɪθfəli ˌɹɛpɹɪˈzɛnt mɛni ˈpiplz pɹəˌnʌnsiˈeɪʃənz… so nɑʊ ju hæv ðə seɪm ˈpɹɑbləm æz bəˈfoɹ ɛkˈsɛpt wɪθ ˈhɑrdɚ-tə-taɪp ˈlɛtɚz.

        ʃwɑ ɪn pɑɹˈtɪkulɚ ɪz ə hoːl ˈʃɪtʃoː ɑn ɪts oːn

        ɑn ðæt noːt, gɛs weɹ aɪ gɹuː ʌp :)

        • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          0
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          I’m shite at reading accents from IPA but I’m gonna guess northern England. Or California. Dynamic extremes! Which is right?

      • YTG123@feddit.ch
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Not really, because of accent differences. The best you could do is account for all phonemes distinguished across standardized varieties, regardless of their phonetic realization. Of course, you couldn’t possibly account for all of them (e.g. distinguishing the Australian /æ/ vs /æː/ would be troublesome for British and American speakers).

        Hīr’z æn icsperimentăl sistăm ðæt s̄ūd würc ăcros SSBI (SSBE) ænd DĂ (GAmerican). Æz jū cæn sī, homăfounz ār spelt aidenticăly, wīc fōrmz ārn’t rităn æt ōl, ænd plein vauălz ār dz̄enărăly jūz’d wið ðēr Roumæns saundz.

        Strüt-Fut-Gūs-Cjur-Für Cit-Flīs-Nīr-Fir-Hæpy Dres-Feis-Scwēr-Fern Træp-Mauþ-Prais-Baþ-Pām-Stārt Cloþ-Ts̄ois-Löt-Þōt-Nōrþ Cömă-Letăr (tuc ðæt wün from Roumeiniăn)

    • JimVanDeventer@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      7
      ·
      1 year ago

      How I wish for the day English decides to upend everything and go phonetic with a truncated alphabet and word modernization.

      Also, drop the whole uppercase and lowercase nonsense. Just pick one!

    • Sagifurius@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      man like a billion people over 6 continents speak English. HTF is that gonna happen? Whole thing is crowd sourced as fuck.

    • otp@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      17
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      I believe it’s called affrication – changing a stop to a fricative.

      T can become “ch”, and d can become a “j” sound.

      This can happen in some North American accents when you have a T or D followed by an r or a y sound.

      Train might sound like Chrain*, Drain might sound like Jrain.

      My favourite is “Tuesday”, where some people add a y before the “oo” sound, and it becomes “Chewsday”. Or “Chewsdi” if they shorten the “day” to “dee”.

      The “y” before “oo” can also happen in words like news and tube, giving us a potential for “Chyoob” instead of “tube”.

      I’ve found that t to ch before r is more common among Gen X and younger, and Boomers tend to only make the change before y. But Gen X and younger tend to not have the y in words like “tube”, so that comes up less often.

      D to J before r seems to be pretty common in all ages.

      Getting people to hear the difference can be hard, especially if they’re self conscious about it. If you can get someone to say “Dane” and “Drain” (without saying the words yourself), then you can probably hear the difference…as long as they don’t know that you’re listening for a dr => jr sound change. Most people, even those who make tr => chr and dr => jr naturally are still capable of producing pure “tr” and “dr” if they try.

        • otp@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          1 year ago

          I wouldn’t call it grotesque. “t” and “ch” are very similar sounds, phonetically.

          I think we’re all okay with language change, unless you’re pronouncing the k in “knife”, the p in pterodactyl, and the gh in “laugh” glottally instead of like an “f”.

      • pete_the_cat@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        I never noticed that since I’m from the North East, but that definitely comes from our British ancestors. I always laugh at Simon Whistler (from his many YouTube channels) when he says “tube” because it definitely sounds like “chewb” 😂

      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        You don’t want to hear about my hard D? Why not? Is there some reason why I shouldn’t talk about it? Very well, would you like me to show you it?

      • PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocksB
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

        This

        Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

        I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.

  • Resol van Lemmy@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    13
    ·
    1 year ago

    I don’t know why I can actually tell the difference phonetically between “dragon” and “jragon”, maybe I just pronounce things weirdly.

  • Cosmicomical@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    13
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    1 year ago

    English language doesn’t have an alphabet - change my mind (especially british, but american only made one step in the right direction and then stopped)