I have used linux for a couple of years now and it was one of the most bumpy beginnings (and ends) i ever had with software. There was little a moment that wasnt marred by some kind of problem.
I could write a book on all the problems i had encountered and some of them happen several times, but here are some highlights:
- monitors not being all recognized unless its plugged in in a VERY specific order
- monitor 2 not having the correct colors
- audio not coming out of the correct source, the default source changing when something else that can sue it is plugged in, and also changing after a restart
- gaming, proton barely EVER worked, rated gold or platinum on protondb? fuck you it wont even start for you
- wine is not much better, lutris also fucked up several times
What broke the camels back today:
I stream, on wednesday my controller stopped working so i couldnt continue to stream, an hour after i stopped? the controller started working again great right? no, today the same shit, controller doesnt work.
Linux continues to have awful roadblocks that make even the most stubborn user (me) switch back to windows for now
But ah i am not dont yet, getting support from other users is about as much a fools errand as it is for windows, just sprinkled in with a lot more brown nosing elitism. And i imagine i will get similar comments here cause lemmy has the same circlejerks reddit has.
As long as linux continues having the most mundane problems with NO solution anywhere it wont get anywhere, if it werent for steamdeck it would still hover around at below 3%
See i like linux, i like how the ui feels and all, but i just cant anymore, i want shit to actually work and linux just cant provide that yet
I’m conflicted. I always upvote actually unpopular opinions on !c/unpopularopinion.
But I always downvote posts that include things like “cant speak bad about X on Y now can we” and “X has the same circlejerks Y has”).On topic: Linux is an operating system that does some things better than Windows and other things worse. Most of its issues are a direct result of lacking support from third party closed source software vendors. That lack of support is a direct result of its low market share on desktop computers.
I use Linux because my user experience with it is MUCH, MUCH better than with Windows overall.
Things like:- the global search opening a browser that was designed to be as annoying as possible
- GUI settings I set being reverted with an update
- popups nagging me to use NEW_PRODUCT
- error messages telling me “sorry we did an oopsie, please try again later”
- forcing me to create an online account for installing the OS
- reminding me again to do it with each update
- vendors installing a gig of crapware and PUPs when I just need a printer driver
- Outlook connecting to the M365 e-mail account after I just specifically told it to connect to my own Exchange server
- uninstalling and preventing reinstall of software I bought when I click on the shiny “fix problems” button
make me tear my hair out. Just let me use my computer, for fuck’s sake!
And on top of all that and more, I’ve had way fewer issues running Linux-supporting software on Linux than running Windows-supporting software on Windows. And that’s the thing people don’t understand: Linux is not Windows.
If you try to use it as a drop-in replacement for Windows, you’re gonna have a sub-par experience. You need to switch ecosystems, not just the OS.
(but I’m still impressed that games made for Windows work well using graphics drivers made for Windows, 80-90% of the time).I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.
There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine’s resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux!
Your opinion OK, but what makes it really unpopular, even like lukewarm-shit-unpopular, is the fact that it is some very poorly substantiated criticism.
What gets me is that this person is making very specific complaints about a very specific distro and setup, but then uses these complaints to shit on ALL OF LINUX.
When it fails on windows, it’s a stuff problem, but when it’s on Linux it’s a Linux problem somehow…
what makes it really unpopular, even like lukewarm-shit-unpopular, is the fact that it is some very poorly substantiated criticism.
What gets me is that this person is making very specific complaints about a very specific distro and setup, but then uses these complaints to shit on ALL OF LINUX.
And if we disagree with some of OP’s conclusions we’re the problem because “can’t speak bad about linux on lemmy now can we.”
OP will make another post about how unwelcoming the Linux community is next, and never wonder why their experience might be different than someone else’s.
Proton works great for me. Windows also has problems with selecting the audio source. I only have one monitor so I can’t tell for the others.
I find it very unfair that people will forgive any shortcoming of windows but Linux should be absolutely perfect or it’s not usable. No one can make a printer work on windows better than on anything, and projecting a presentation is always going to fail 50% of the time. When it fails on windows, it’s a stuff problem, but when it’s on Linux it’s a Linux problem somehow…
I’ve been using Linux since 2004, in various distros, exclusively as my desktop for any computer I own or control.
I nonetheless agree with you 100%.
Linux¹ is an OS that appeals to a very narrow spectrum of a very narrow subculture of people. As a desktop OS for the general public it is basically a disaster area. If video doesn’t fuck you up, audio will, or Bluetooth, or networking, or any number of other sharp corners and rusty nails sticking out. You either get used to fixing these (and then never touching them ever again once solved … and hope the next kernel update doesn’t fuck you over!) or you get the joy of sifting through a myriad of subtly incorrect and/or out of date “help” articles online. (Documentation?! Don’t make me laugh. You wouldn’t like me when I laugh.)
There are a few reasons for this. Of these, one is out of the control of the Linux community. The rest are the Linux community’s to fix, however. But they won’t. (The reason for this is one of the items listed.)
- Manufacturers of hardware won’t release the information needed to write drivers for their products, and won’t commit to writing and maintaining good drivers of their own.
- The kernel has its ABI changed more often than, I suspect, an average kernel maintainer changes their underwear. (This contributes to why manufacturer drivers tend to drift into shit.)
- The development community is almost pathologically opposed to writing proper documentation. (Hint: reference documentation is not sufficient and never has been.)
- People who do write documentation (often third parties), are not supported in any way by those who don’t: changes aren’t checked against existing documentation and the latter updated, for example.
- There’s a strong “it was hard for me to learn; it should be hard for everyone to learn!” vibe in the user community.
- There’s also a strong element of denial in said user community: a lot of “works for me, so it must be your problem”. The problem being with Linux is not considered seriously and, indeed, is strongly denied when mentioned as a possibility.
- Fixing complicated (albeit often entirely unnecessary) problems is literally addictive. A lot of users are addicted specifically to the dopamine hit of solving a complicated, if pointless, problem and thus don’t see this as a problem. They expect other users to be similarly addicted.
- A lot of users view the computer’s OS as the end, not the means to an end. This clashes with the viewpoint of users who just want their OS to get the fuck out of their way so they can work on their actual ends.
So why do I still use Linux, given all my negativity above?
- I do a lot of work with programming languages that most people haven’t even seen used in anger. Many of these aren’t supported under Windows in the first place; those which are tend not to be very well supported. Unix-like systems are the most common supported systems in that space.
- I really, really, really hate all the spying that gets done by commercial software and would rather deal with the problems that crop up using Linux than feeding a bunch of sociopathic billionaires even more data.
- This is probably the big one: I don’t play computer games. I hate the fucking things enough without wanting them in my entertainment. Many of the problems that people have vanish into nothingness if you’re not a gamer.
- I am a gigantic nerd. (In all senses of “gigantic” here.)
¹ Before some Yahoo tries to “own” me by pointing out “BUT ANDROID IS BASED ON THE LINUX KERNEL TOO!!!111oneoneoneeleventy!”, here I’m using “Linux” as a shortcut for "Linux on desktop systems as a desktop OS. That Android thing is not the killer line you think it is. It just makes you look intellectually dishonest.
all of these points are very valid but holy shit
“works for me, so it must be your problem”
especially this one resonated with me, cause literally (and i do mean literally) every single problem i would mention online had at least one yahoo doing exactly this
Fixing complicated (albeit often entirely unnecessary) problems is literally addictive. A lot of users are addicted specifically to the dopamine hit of solving a complicated, if pointless, problem and thus don’t see this as a problem. They expect other users to be similarly addicted.
I had never considered this…
I really, really, really hate all the spying that gets done by commercial software and would rather deal with the problems that crop up using Linux than feeding a bunch of sociopathic billionaires even more data.
This is the big one for me.
Entirely agree with this whole comment though.
Strong agree, especially on the documentation front.
How can you flame like this without mentioning the distribution so we can shit on it!
because the point is not to shit on individual distros? none of them are shit in the end, the linux ecosystem just isnt for me just yet
I know, I was joking. 😊 It was actually great that you didn’t mention it, if you had then the discussion would have focused on how that particular distro is the one that didn’t do right by you.
exactly lmao
People in this thread have noted that some systems seem to be Linux-cursed, and I’ve definitely experienced that. Usually it’s a specific piece of hardware that isn’t well supported, or a package or default configuration that has an issue. I’ve had systems that were spinning their heads and spraying pea soup everywhere on OpenSUSE and Debian turn around and behave perfectly on Gentoo (that was 17 years ago, but it doesn’t seem to be a unique experience).
Regarding the controller, if you’re connecting a PS4 controller via bluetooth I think I had the same problem earlier today, and there’s an issue open on the bluez github about it. I found a post on the Arch bbs with a workaround. TLDR, bluez has had a few issues in the latest builds and reverting all your bluez libraries to 5.68-1 seems to solve it for most people, including me. Unfortunately, this kind of thing crops up occasionally. Everywhere really, but especially on Linux because of how much it relies on community contributions to projects.
Anyway, I’ve rambled too long. Sounds like you got bit by either a driver issue or a config/package issue. Sorry it happened to you, and sorry it soured you on Linux. If you’re looking for something that “just works” and aren’t getting it with Linux, no reason to beat your head against a wall.
oh its two different controllers, both connected via usb, a switch pro controller (recognized as a 360 controller) and an 8bitdo pro 2 controller
Use the OS that fits your use case.
Windows doesn’t fit mine. Microsoft now aims to be like Google and Apple: All of Windows 11 is designed to steer you into the MS ecosystem. If you submit to its will and use all the MS services, the nagging stops and you probably have a good UX.
Linux fits my use case much better: I want an OS that translates between my hardware and my software, otherwise gets out of my way and lets me, the sole user, administrator and owner of the PC control it.
Linux is my main driver for work, so I don’t have the same challenges as you do for gaming or graphics, but am interested in which distro you’re using?
There are warts definitely, but haven’t had the issues you point out with monitors or audio using Debian or Fedora. That said it still is a lot like Lego when it comes to desktop use - dozens of ways to build something and it can vary a heap in the different ways you approach it.
Agreed it is still a ways off mainstream with the exception of power users or very streamlined environments like the Steamdeck.
first the one you mentioned: fedora = with nvidia never worked properly debian = id like my system to be up to date, especially for gaming
as for the other ones (in no specific order): Solus, the colour problem manjaro, the most common “plug in in specific order” perpetrator endeavouros, not as common as manjaro but sitll present, all proton/wine problems linux mint, same gaming problems
those are the biggest ones
user server does not check out
what?
Your account is on sh.itjust.works, and in this case sh** isn’t working.
lmao, yeah
I’m a software developer with about twenty years in the field, spending my first half of that working in a Unix environment. I have tried so hard to make Linux my home desktop solution. I’ve come back to it every five years or so, hoping it’s finally figured out the UI/UX thing.
Things I like:
- no comercial motivation
- intrinsically programmer-oriented
- free with available sources, as deep as I care to dig
Things I don’t like:
- High barrier to entry (which distro?)
- Poor support for newer hardware (not a fault of Linux but a reality)
- Too much competition in very basic facilities like package managers and desktop environments
- Well-intentioned but largely unhelpful community support due to the above points
I’m back using Linux again (Fedora) because at the moment I’m doing a lot of embedded and SoC work, and again I love the dev experience. But so far it seems like not much has changed wrt how fiddly daily driving can be. I can’t stand W11 for a lot of reasons, but I’m constantly tempted to try my luck with WSL as a better compromise.
What distro were you using? I’ve literally never had any problems with controllers, video cards, monitors, or anything that you’ve mentioned. Also, Proton not working is extremely rare. Basically the only thing that prevents games from running perfectly for me is anti-cheat specifically not being supported by the game studio.
I’ve basically always used Ubuntu which is very stable and the most Windows-like experience imo. Maybe you should give Ubuntu a try if you haven’t?
I’d put 5 bucks on a bet that the games that wouldn’t launch in proton were stored on a shared NTFS drive. The monitor problem because they unchecked ‘configure new monitors when connected’. And the rest is just user-error and not understanding the tools they are using.
currently im using endeavouros that had the controller problem of this week
ubuntu and or an ubuntu base didnt really change the wine/proton problem sadly
Can’t speak for controllers other than the wired Xbox 360 one, but EndeavourOS itself has never given me any of the other problems you described.
It’s not 100% issue-free, though that’s mainly the fault of Nvidias’ driver.
What I’m really confused about though is your systems’ inability to make wine/proton work properly.
What hardware are you running, and what are some games you intended to play?
its a common kenovo prebuilt pc that has never been tampered besides giving it a bit more ram
i had problems with so many games that it would be a struggle to list them all, so i limit it to 5:
- warcraft 3, bitched about directx which was installed
- anno 1404, an error i unfortunately cant remember on boot and than closes itself
- lots of smaller indie games never start (too many to list, just a random small indie game and there is a chance i tried it out and it never started)
- one finger death punch 1, lags so much its unplayable
- stacklands, worded twice, than never again, same setup
Okay, I don’t have any of those games. But looking at Anno 1404 for example, lots of reports on ProtonDB say to run DX9.
One Finger Death Punch has only a single recent report, which decribes problems exclusive to the Deck, so idk.
Stacklands’ recent reports look pretty much exclusively positive, so honestly, something about your system might be borked.
What troubleshooting steps did you take? Clearly something is wrong.
Edit:
You know, I always like to help, but you don’t provide much info.thank you for the help, i do appreciate it, but i have been through the same steps so much that i have more or less given up
i have been through the trenches way too many times
Sometimes, you just get the bad luck of the draw, and your combination of hardware and software throws tantrums like this.
It certainly happens
right now im trying to get back into using windows (cause gaming and streaming and stuff, which was what caused the post to begin with)
and like the previous times i tried to, it just gives me a sour taste in my mouth (my brain wont shut up about it, its loud like this)
so at this point im still kinda willing to listen to anything you have to say, i can give you any info you want really, we can take this to dms (are dms a thing here? idk lol)
I won’t downvote you for having an unpopular opinion. But I’ll definitely downvote you for putting passive aggressive shit like “can’t speak bad about linux on lemmy now can we” in your post title. Lemmy isn’t a monolith and your experiences with downvote brigading and dogpiling isn’t universal.
Tbh, OP isn’t wrong there. Their language is maybe a bit too harsh, but especially in communities about Linux, they really do crucify you if you say anything bad about Linux.
And “anything bad” can range from “I got a problem” over “I have an Nvidia GPU” to “I use Ubuntu”. And “I’m frustrated with Linux” will in 100% of cases lead to a lot of downvotes.
Been a Linux-only user since 2007. Except in some very corner cases, every time I’ve seen someone complain about how people dogpiled them instead of helped them with a problem, it’s been because they “asked” for help with a post that started something like OP.
I see examples every single day of of the community being helpful to people who have problems, even when user ignorance is part of the problem.
Catch more flies with honey than vinegar and all that.
I don’t think that’s fair.
I think it’s totally understandable, that someone gets ranty when they spent 5h trying and failing to fix something that should be simple.
And compare that to how similar requests for help are handled in Windows communities.
Someone has a big issue with their Windows PC, they spent a lot of time trying and failing to fix the issue.
So they post in some online community “I can’t get this piece of crap working. I’m so frustrated with the useless hoops I have to jump through”.
The reaction to that, without fail, is “Yeah, I understand why this is frustrating, because it is frustrating and it sucks. Maybe these pointers could help you”.
Do the same with something related to Linux, and the answers range from something like your comment (“asking” for help), to helpful comments like “I’ve never had issues with this, so you must be doing it wrong” to people outright claiming, that the person asking for help is actually a Windows troll who only posts to drag Linux through the mud.
To summarize: in Windows communities there are hardly any fanboys who get butthurt when someone offends their creed. You also never hear “It’s working fine for me, so you must be doing it wrong”, because most people (even ones without a technical background) understand that not everyone is experiencing the same set of bugs.
In Linux communities, all of that is very common.
If you think the bracketed passive aggressive BS in the title of OP along with comments within their post disparaging the same community who they expect help from is the correct way for anyone to go about trying to get help about any piece of technology from a community of volunteers who aren’t paid to help them, then we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
Edited to add: The very substance of the post is “I know everyone here likes this thing, but I think it’s shit and I’m going to tell you why” - how is it the fault of the community when that doesn’t result in constructive discussion?
If you think the bracketed passive aggressive BS in the title of OP along with comments within their post disparaging the same community who they expect help from is the correct way for anyone to go about trying to get help about any piece of technology from a community of volunteers who aren’t paid to help you, then we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
Tbh, if you don’t want to help someone, that’s totally fine. Then don’t help them.
But don’t post, to use your terms, passive aggressive bullshit like “It’s working for me, so you must be doing it wrong”.
And it’s an issue that I have only seen in Linux communities and communities that draw the same crowd, that people get really pissy if you complain about a product.
For example, check out this post of mine over on r/linuxgaming: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/17w5hyo/process_of_setting_up_steamprotonnvidia_prime/
There I documented what I had to do to get Risk of Rain 2 to run on Linux and compared it to Windows.
I didn’t offend the community or the people there, I didn’t even say anything really negative about Linux or any of the involved products. The only thing I said was “Things could need some improvements”.
I had an upvote ratio of 17% and except of one comment, every single commenter wrote some form of “I don’t have that problem, so you must be the problem”.
The most positive comment there was “I think you are exaggerating”.
This is what a toxic community looks like and if you’ve been on the receiving end of that stick a few times, I am not surprised that comments like the one of the OP here follows.
Linux fanboys (most people using Linux aren’t fanboys, but sadly enough of them are) hate people using other OSes than them. They also hate people using other distros than them. And they hate anyone who dare suggest that the software they are using might contain bugs.
And this is something you don’t get in communities of any other OS.
I think that’s a pretty terrible thing, because these people are really effective at driving newcomers away from Linux.
dont think i have seen anyone be this understanding of the situation i have written this in, and you seem to have been in the same situation as me more than once it seems, so thank you for being this understanding of a heated post and sorry you had similar experiences
Yeah, the thing is, people in that kind of situation usually stop asking questions or stop using Linux alltogether.
These toxic fanatics that keep attacking everyone who could use help with using Linux are at least as effective at keeping the market share of Linux low as Microsoft’s anticompetitive behaviour is.
And, tbh, anyone who hasn’t had a problem with Linux where they had to spend >5h to fix it probably hasn’t done anything else than using Linux to launch a browser.
But don’t post, to use your terms, passive aggressive bullshit like “It’s working for me, so you must be doing it wrong”.
Quote me doing so.
Tbh, if you don’t want to help someone, that’s totally fine. Then don’t help them.
I can’t fathom why ANYONE would voluntarily help someone who comes at them like in OP.
Didn’t say you did, I only said I am using your terms.
You can’t fathom, because apparently you can’t or don’t want to understand the difference between being frustrated with a product and/or certain parts of the community and a direct attack at you.
I totally understand the OP’s point and if I had a helpful solution, I would help them.
sorry about my language, this was written in the exact moment as square singer describe,d i was getting a lil heated after having tried to troubleshoot something that worked perfectly for 2 days
tbh, OP is definitely wrong here. I see shitty behavior from shitty people in every community on Lemmy. The linux community is not special in this regard. And the passive aggressive attitude is not justified because “something should have been simple”. It’s linux. Can it be frustrating and complex? Sure. Is it ever helpful to allow that frustration to translate into a social media post about the entire software ecosystem? No, lol.
Nope. The behaviour on about any community on Feddit.de for example is really good and constructive.
Too many people see using FOSS as part of their identity rather than the products they enjoy using. And these people usually get really offended when someone says something negative about their product.
It does have quite a bit of problems, bugs and fails at the basics more often than not.
I kinda feel like I’m being gaslit whenever I bring it up and people say it “just works”.
Because. Well. It doesn’t.
Is it linux not working or hardware with shitty proprietary driver issues?
I don’t blame windows when my logitec software takes a dump. I blame windows when they reset my windows settings on an update.
Is it linux not working or hardware with shitty proprietary driver issues?
I don’t think a single one of my current issues are driver related.
You are right about that though. When Ive tried using Linux with a Nvidia GPU before and it was unusable.
same man, same
Yep, Linux is certainly not perfect, and it’s not for everyone, though it’s improving all the time. A lot of the problems you were seeing come down to distro and Desktop environment, paired with hardware.
Because of the amount of choice and preferences we have, not all the desktop environments are feature parity, and each team has their own priorities. It’s just a shame that you practically have to do homework in order to have the best experience, when Linux users themselves say that the biggest benefit is choice.
choice was very nice, but this might be a supermarket kind of problem here
Sorry but if you can’t get Gold or even Platinum rated games to run then the problem is in front of the monitor.
there it is, didnt take long did ya
If you think it is elitism for me to point out the fact that you can’t get games to launch that should basically launch out of the box, then yeah. No one can help you at that point anymore. Sorry bud. With that kind of struggle you’ll fail in Windows as well, if not even more.
