• Erika3sis [she/her, xe/xem]@hexbear.net
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    1 year ago

    You’re jumping the gun and honestly being a bit smug about it. It says in the article “new structure of Zapatista autonomy”, which makes this sound less like a collapse and more like a cryptic announcement that they’re just restructuring…

    …Noooow it could well be that the restructuring ends up bringing the movement closer to Marxism-Leninism, but y’know we’ll cross that bridge when we get there. For now it’s like, don’t diss them, OK? The Zapatistas are our friends.

    • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      Seems they do complain about increased pressure from the government and cartels on them, accuse USA of being the cause of that, and the need to reorganise themselves to resist it.

      So, even at the best possible interpretation it still means they are going in the opposite direction to anarchism, so the comment is correct. And they ARE dissolving their current organs so the headline is not incorrect too.

      • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        As they say, everyone either lives long enough to become an ML or they die. There’s a reason they call it the immortal science.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      It sounds a bit more than just restructuring though, these bits in particular talk about dissolution

      it was decided to dissolve the Zapatista Rebel Autonomous Municipalities (MAREZ) and the Good Government Boards. The Caracoles remain, but they will remain closed to the outside

      after a long and profound critical and self-critical analysis,… it was decided to dissolve the … Autonomous Municipalities and the Good Government Boards. We will discuss the reasons and process by which this decision was made little by little

      I’m not trying to be glib about this, and obviously it would be a net positive if Zapatistas managed to succeed. However, what happened highlights the problem with the approach of building autonomous communities with the larger context of a capitalist state. And this is precisely the approach I see Anarchists advocate for.

      Long term success is only possible when the end goal is for the workers to build their own state and to be able to defend it from both internal and external threats. The same problems that Zapatistas encountered will also be encountered by other movements based on similar principles.

    • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      If im reading the context as to why they have disvolved as well it seems like they are worried about the cartel mostly; it must be hard having an autonomous zone when you have state sanctioned death cults armed with the latest in american military equipment riding around doing what they want; they specifically said that they advise people not travel to attend there latest conference as the territory is too destabilized, but they havent actually said what the next form of organizing will look like.

      Its likely best to wait till post-meeting when they have laid out what the future looks like for them before making any definitive statements on there collapse.

    • Beat_da_Rich@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      Yeah. Considering how many Marxist parties have failed to even get off the ground, there’s no high horse to even sit on here.

      • Erika3sis [she/her, xe/xem]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        The irony of reading hexbears and lemmygradtsy posting about how “the Zapatistas have collapsed” literally right after I saw a comment on here about how Redditors “don’t actually read news, but just vibe over headlines”, I swear…

      • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmygrad.mlOP
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        1 year ago

        Their official statement:

        it was decided to dissolve the Zapatista Rebel Autonomous Municipalities (MAREZ) and the Good Government Boards. The Caracoles remain, but they will remain closed to the outside

        after a long and profound critical and self-critical analysis,… it was decided to dissolve the … Autonomous Municipalities and the Good Government Boards. We will discuss the reasons and process by which this decision was made little by little

        The region will remain in the hands of the Mexican state. Dissolution of the structures must be interrogated for conceding to the current conditions of power in Chiapas. Increases in federal troops and deepening of the existing capitalist economic dependency.

        • SpookyGenderCommunist [they/them, she/her]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          You’ve hacked up the quote to show only the parts you want to show. The rest of the paragraph you quoted reads as follows:

          We will tell you the reasons and process by which this decision was made little by little in the following texts. I can only tell you that this evaluation, in its final phase, began about 3 years ago. We will also explain to you what the new structure of Zapatista autonomy is like and how it has been developing.

          As others in this thread have been saying… They’re restructuring to address the situation with the cartels. We’ll have to see what that looks like, and if it will work. But it’s dishonest to characterize this as a collapse, as though they’re dissolving these political organs, and nothing else. Which they’re clearly saying isn’t the case.

          • ☭ Blursty ☭@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            As others in this thread have been saying… They’re restructuring to address the situation with the cartels. We’ll have to see what that looks like, and if it will work.

            I’m going to predict that it will involve some hierarchy and authority, inevitably.

            • SpookyGenderCommunist [they/them, she/her]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              And I’m sure it will. But it feels super weird to me that this is being used to dunk on anarchists.

              The Zapatistas suffer from a problem of ideological eclecticism. There are MLs, Maoists, Anarchists, liberals, and indigenous nationalists all tied up in that movement, and it can’t be easily pinned down.

              I wish I could find it, but I once saw an interview with Subcomandante Marcos where the interviewer asks him about international support, and he gives a somewhat exasperated sigh and a knowing look to the camera and says “yes, from the Anarchists”.

              There’s a clear feeling from the Zapatistas, that while they’re grateful for the support from western anarchists, they’re also frustrated by this simplification of who and what they are by westerners.

              So it just feels gross and weird to me, that one group of western leftists is using the very real, existential, struggle of a revolutionary movement (no matter how flawed), as an excuse to dunk on another group of western leftists.

              Idk, maybe log off, actually

                • SpookyGenderCommunist [they/them, she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  From the OP:

                  EZLN, the favorite example of Anarchists and revisionists of an alternative to Marxism-Leninism, has now collapsed due to lack of solid theoretical fundamentals.

                  From another comment:

                  Got in an argument with an anarchist who was pro-Zapatista and called me a redfash tankie. I doubt this will sway him in the slightest.

                  There’s clearly a dishonest interpretation of what’s going on, with a revolutionary movement in the global south, being used by western leftists to dunk on other western leftists.

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmygrad.mlOP
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                1 year ago

                If you see me pointing out that lack of a solid foundation leads to socialist projects dissolving as a dunk on anarchists, then that kind of says it all.

          • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmygrad.mlOP
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            1 year ago

            I’ve “hacked up” the quote to show the relevant parts of what actually happened in tangible terms. They’re dissolving because they tried to create autonomy within the context of an oppressive capitalist state, and that was never going to be sustainable. You can keep pretending this isn’t a collapse, but at that point you’re the one being intellectually dishonest and avoiding admitting the actual reality of what this “restructuring” means.

  • DankZedong @lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    That’s sad to hear. I hope they can restructure themselves to keep their state going without falling back to the capitalist regime.

  • PosadistPotatofish@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    Celebrating when our indigenous comrades suffer a setback in self-determination is not a good look. As MLs we should support their fight against Capital even if it doesn’t precisely follow doctrine. There’s much to be learned from Zapatismo.

    The Zapatistas don’t even call themselves Anarchists or claim n Anarchist lineage. Don’t be smug against them just to own terminally online anarchists

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      Obviously it would be better if they could succeed, but it’s also important to recognize that what we’re seeing was entirely predictable. It’s important to look at both the positive and the negative aspects of the approach critically in order to learn to avoid the same pitfalls in the future.

      And while it’s true that there is no direct lineage between Zapatistas and western Anarchists, it’s clear that a lot of the ideas and methods are compatible. Hence, the problems that Zapatistas ran into will also be encountered by other movements founded on similar principles.

      My main point was that long term liberation cannot be achieved by carving out autonomous regions within a capitalist state. The workers must take charge of the state itself. So far, ML approach has been the only reliable way to achieve that.

      • PosadistPotatofish@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        Ok fair, yes. The issue of how to survive long term when there’s a hostile state threatening and surrounding you has genuinely been one of my biggest reservations about Anarchism as a whole and is why I come down in favor of having a state

    • JK1348 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      And who’s to say Zapatismo can’t Evolve like other branches of socialist ideology?

      There should no one be celebrating or going “I told you so”, we need more unity and we can learn from one another

  • CicadaSpectre@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    Got in an argument with an anarchist who was pro-Zapatista and called me a redfash tankie. I doubt this will sway him in the slightest.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      At the very least I hope they take notes from the ML approach, or arrive to a similar one all on their own. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Zapatismo evolving in its own unique way, but if they’re going to survive as a movement then they have to adopt methods that.

  • Catradora-Stalinism☭@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    I don’t think some realize that when you get rid of the anarchist methods in favor of more centralized ML ones, that fundamentally makes it not any sort of anarchist adjacent movement. Which is what I think Yogthos is saying in relation to that.

    Marxism Leninism is the correct path, tested by blood and time. Its sad to see modern communism having to retread old ground.

    • Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Anarchism always evolves into MLism or decays into Fascism, so I’m glad (and not at all surprised) that they’re transitioning into the former.

  • toomanyjoints69@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    Im so sad people can be happy about this kind of failure. This is why i hated irl activism. Its just a sea of people sabotaging you and your own underlings going behind your back to sabotage your allies. Theyll then celebrate, call you some sort of name, and call your boss to accuse you of being a child molester because how dare you ban them for groping someone at a meeting.

    Did i get fired? No, because i have never been accused of being a child molester before the baseless accusation by the marxist leninist groper that hated how we accepted help from anarchists to feed homeless people.

    Im drunk

      • toomanyjoints69@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        My job drug tests and i refuse to do weed through any method other than shoving gummies up my ass. One time i thought i was shoving gummy bears up my ass, but my husband comes in and informs me that they had weed in them. I had just passed my drug test but i had work later that day. I knew i was going for a ride.

        After a fairly stressful drive to work i emptied the gummies in a bathroom trash can (i refuse to associate toilets with my sex stuff because sex is a beutiful thing between man and man, not the dirty fulfillment of a biological function.

        Its always really disturbed at how sex has been commodified in our culture. They think that its a toy to be bought, instead of an activity to share.