Hamas has spent years stockpiling desperately needed fuel, food and medicine, as well as ammo and weapons, in the miles of tunnels it has carved out under Gaza.
If Hamas had operated strictly & solely against Israeli military units & installations on 10/7/23 and left civilians the hell alone, we wouldn’t have to be here.
Hamas has never focused on military targets. Their founding charter specifically calls for the death of all Jews worldwide and forbids any conception of peace.
What you don’t get is that most people are not justifying the brutal killing of 1400 Israeli people and kidnapping of 200.
We are just saying don’t kill and punish civilians that had no say in this. Honestly at first I was on Israel’s side, but now? Yeah you showed the world why there even IS a Hamas and how your bloodlust has no end.
Especially after the ‘parking lot’ comment and the harassment and killing of Palestinians on the West bank, oh I forgot about the 'if Israel was really targeting civilians why are there not more dead Palestinians than just 7000 and raising?
Just…quit. you’re losing every minute you try to change the narrative. People went through years of this shit and nobody believes it anymore.
Especially after the ‘parking lot’ comment and the harassment and killing of Palestinians on the West bank, oh I forgot about the 'if Israel was really targeting civilians why are there not more dead Palestinians than just 7000 and raising?
Who the fuck do you think you’re replying to, troll?
How many civilians are you personally comfortable with dying, past those already dead. No “they’re in the way” bullshit. Give your conscience a number.
War is shitty, that’s why it’s used as a final option
Comfortable with? Zero. None of this is comfortable. Nobody is happy right now. It’s not like 10/7, when people went around rejoicing in Jewish suffering—now that the war is on, everybody is upset.
I’ve yet to hear a serious alternative.
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But the Israelis killed themselves is just the kind of BS hamas is known for.
The quote is from a civilian hostage, not Hamas.
The quote is from a news site you’ve never heard of. Here she is speaking in English on CNN.
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/24/hostage-hamas-released-israel-ebof-sot-vpx.cnn
I saw the CNN interview. She didn’t mention the Israeli troops murdering civilians. The interview was with an Israeli radio station and reported on by Haaretz, which is a well known Israeli newspaper.
I cannot find any sign of Yasmin Porat’s name on Haaretz, at least not in their English site. Can you link to the report you’re talking about?
Sorry, Haaretz wasn’t her, it was a guy named Tuval, but is in Hebrew. He said:
Haaretz reports: “According to him [Tuval], only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions – including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages – did the IDF [Israeli army] complete the takeover of the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Be’eri people were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.”
Jacobin article about Yasmin Porat. But again, that references the radio interview, which has been removed since. This is not a hill I’m willing to die on. With scant sources that reference each other and censoring, take this account with skepticism.
The western media interviewed her in English instead of making up some bullshit translation.
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/24/hostage-hamas-released-israel-ebof-sot-vpx.cnn
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What does Arabic have to do with the source you posted?
You know that language wasn’t Arabic, right?
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I can’t believe you’re still acting like you have moral superiority here lol
“OK, fine - I made up my whole argument, but you’re probably lying too! Afterall, it’s what I’d do!”
I mean jeez, if you’re going to lie through your teeth about something to try and support some made up point, at least take the 5 seconds to do find out what it is you’re lying about
Edit: lol, he blocked me - what a tool
What? I don’t speak enough Hebrew to understand her interview in Hebrew, which is why I provided her testimony in English, which you can understand without a need of a Translation, and which also addressed your confused question of why Western media wasn’t reporting on it—it was.
And then you went on to tell the stupidest fucking lie in this thread.
So what are you bitching about?
Definitely Hamas’s fault Israel is an apartheid state bombing civilians. /s Palestinians in the West Bank might disagree. Source
I feel like this is supposed to shift attention from the blockade of humanitarian aide. Yeah… no. Let these people trapped there at least have a last meal before they’re killed by killed by an air strike or tank or helicopter or settlers doing ethnic cleansing or troops or…
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Why is everyone acting like this is such a surprise? They built tunnels, live there so it’s no surprise that they have food and ammo there?
Oh wait, look over here while we’re killing civilians because you know, Hamas.
Honestly Israel should fire their propaganda people, I could do a better job defending a genocide.
Because as we know, cowardly Hamas terrorists only use civilians as shields. Hamas are scum.
Hamas didn’t exist until 1987. Was Hamas to blame for the violence before then too?
I’m talking about October 2023.
Well, there’s your problem. Source
“It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum,” Guterres said. “The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing.”
NOTHING makes it okay to perform the terrorist murders Hamas did.
but is the daily plight of Palestinians Okay?
I stand with Palestinian and Israeli civilians and hope they can find leaders who want a solution after Hamas is eradicated.
And Netanayhu is deposed (which many Israelis support).
You and I can’t imagine what life is like in occupied Palestine. Who am I to judge how oppressed people choose to resist. I don’t have that right, having never been in their shoes.
Nelson Mandela-
I and some colleagues came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle.
If you’re curious and want to understand the conflict better, Vice did a deep dive into the conflict.
Nothing justifies it. But there are plenty of reasons that explain it. Abusing someone doesn’t justify them murdering their abuser, but it sure as hell explains it. When I poke a dog I may not feel that it’s legally justified in biting me, but I’m hardly surprised.
Yes and we’re talking about decades of Israeli terrorism, predating Hamas.
Well no, not really, the thread is about Hamas and you are the first one to bring up Israeli terrorism.
But it’s not like Jewish violence in the region predates Muslim violence. The pogroms have been going since at least the 1920s. Things escalated. Nobody is saying Hamas was the start, but Hamas is the biggest problem right now.
So WHY didn’t you go after them when you had the chance 20 years ago? Why even prop them up to be elected and then ban all elections? Why allow them to grow and be subsidised to even get to this level. Why allow them to build tunnels?
WHY with your almighty army and tech and effing dome don’t you enter the tunnels now? I saw the maps, you know where they are, why? If Ukraine can use drones, keep civilian casualties at minimum level and treat their prisoners of war with dignity, why can’t you?
Because ‘we value human life?’ You only value yourselves. You are the Nazis at this point of time and history will remember this as the most ironic thing ever.
Yes, because Jews value human life, asshole. Israel has been trying a variety of solutions. The occupation of Gaza wasn’t working too well in 2003, Hamas had been starting to fire rockets. So Israel hoped that, by unilaterally withdrawing Gaza, allowing them to hold elections, wishing that democracy might establish a Palestinian partner for peace, and they literally elected Hamas to their government.
They are entering the tunnels, stupid. Even though they’re long and winding and loaded with booby traps, they are going into the tunnels, they are doing everything they can to target Hamas.
Israel does use drones. It does work to keep civilian casualties to a minimum, but Gaza city is densely populated and Hamas refuses to let civilians evacuate.
And I’m not going to engage with anybody who pulls the “Jews are Nazis” trope out. Man, you have no idea what a Nazi is. You think the Nazis suffered an attack on their civilians in the middle of a ceasefire, called the attacker, and politely asked them to evacuate the base they attacked from before striking back? No, you just wanted the world to know how antisemitic you were.
Jewish violence in the region literally predates Muslim violence, Judaism came hundreds of years before Islam.
The biggest problem right now is Israel. step one is for them to stop murdering thousands of children.
Jewish violence in the region literally predates Muslim violence, Judaism came hundreds of years before Islam.
Alright, I guess we’re being pedantic now.
Jews got expelled from the region and kept out of it by various European and Arab powers until they started buying land back in the late 1800s. From that point on, Jewish violence was not the start of violence in the region, it was Muslim violence and Muslim unwillingness to coexist with Jews. It ramped up well before 1987, well before 1948.
The biggest problem right now is Israel. step one is for them to stop murdering thousands of children.
Israel is not targeting children. Hamas is using them as human shields. The “3000” number is from Hamas—it includes victims of rocket misfires, and also is a straight up lie, just like their count of the victims at Al-Ahli hospital was a lie. Yes, there are still too many children dying, and yes, too many of them still die as a result of Israeli air strikes. This is the main reason Israel wanted them to be evacuated. Every other country evacuates civilians from war zones, but Hamas cannot allow that, or else the statistics might not favor them. They use propaganda and physical force to keep Palestinian children in buildings that are specifically targets for bombs.
Hamas is, by far, the biggest problem in the region.
Sure. But was that a good reason for Hamas to murder civilians? Was it a good reason for Hamas to murder civilian citizens of Canada, US, UK and many other countries? FUCK NO. Hamas needs to be completely eradicated – PERIOD
Okay so let’s eliminate Hamas and Israel.
No. Eradicate Hamas.
No.
Eradicate Israel and Hamas.
Why do you support terrorists?
So go in the effing tunnels and eliminate them, nobody is holding you back. You’d be doing everyone a favour.
Right now you’ve just killed 7000/8000 civilians and only what, five or so of them were so called Hamas? Israel is really bad at this war thing and I’m starting to think about all of the hard talk and perfect defense system, Mossad etc … were just plain lies. Perception and so on…
You can even tell by the way the troops stand that they have really no idea what real combat is. That’s why you are levelling everything from afar with bombs, you know they have no chance one on one.
It’s simple, stop killing, bombing civilians and start showing us what you’re made of.
Ukraine and Israel supporter. I bet i know your “hair style”
I’m not sure I follow here…
Rafa is a moron. Pay them no attention, they’re always making incredibly braindead takes.
He is suggesting that you are a nazi.
Ruzzia and Hamas are best buddies - of course the Hamas Apologists on Lemmy will not contradict the Ruzzian narrative of Ukraine being Nazis since THEMSELVES are claiming that Israelis are Nazis.
I’m not OP, and OP said:
Because as we know, cowardly Hamas terrorists only use civilians as shields. Hamas are scum.
I got the skinhead implication, but…
Oh! I see! I thought rafa was saying that rafa was a supporter of Ukraine and Israel, that’s the logic I missed. Yeah, I’m familiar with the old trope of accusing Jews of being Nazis.
Please, continue.
Don’t feed the troll.
Is it this?
Sorry, YouTube is blocked in my country
Sorry. It’s this guy:
Gaza was given to Arabs for self rule and determination in 2005, all Jews left Gaza, even Jewish graveyards were dug up and moved, it was theirs to do with as they liked.
They’ve spent the last 18 years making into a terrorist Disneyland with a dozen Islamofascist terrorist organizations with the stated goal of killing Jews and destroying the state of Israel, they’ve fired hundreds of thousands of missiles into Israel indiscriminately targeting civilians, and launched countless cross borders attacks against Jewish civilians, including one that caused the largest loss of Jewish life in any single day, anywhere, since the Holocaust on October 7th.
They were given Gaza to live in freedom and self determination, they used it to kill Jews. They were warned. They chose to ignore the warnings.
These acts of terrorism were perpetrated by the entire Gazan community, they voted for Hamas, and allowed Hamas to rule their government for the last 17 years, there has been no uprising in Gaza, there have only been attacks on Israel. This is what Gazans have supported and sacrificed for in every way they possibly could.
And now it’s here. I do hope they enjoy what they’ve worked generationaly to achieve.
It’s irrelevant whether this screed is disingenuous or ignorant. It serves to prop up the apartheid state of Israel. And you should be ashamed for perpetuating it.
I’m not any more pro-Hamas than anyone else, but cmon man. Do you really feel as if your individual actions have been able to substantively alter the direction of your own country, in your lifetime?
Palestinians are living in an authoritarian regime. Most are probably brainwashed from near birth. Those that aren’t, or that resist it, aren’t given many avenues for change. In our delightful western democracies we may be given the right to peaceful protest - what do you think happens to people who protest Hamas, in Gaza? because I’m betting it’s not a winning strategy for a long, rewarding existence.
the lucky Palestinians get out, but from what I understand, there are basically no avenues by which they can do so. Does that justify murdering them en masse?
I’m with you on this, I feel bad for what I suspect is a majority of Gazans who fear Hamas too much to speak up against them. That’s the biggest issue with OP’s argument.
But Israel isn’t targeting them. Israel is doing everything it can to warn them of the exact buildings it’s targeting, and Hamas is doing everything it can to keep them in the warzones and in the buildings, because it wants them to die, it wants them to be “martyrs” Its leaders have made this clear in many interviews. They talk about how they have six kids in the hopes that three of them die.
War is hell. Nobody is taking this lightly. There will be civilian casualties. That’s a terrible thing. Allowing Hamas to continue its control and its rampage is worse.
Allowing them to continue to oppress Palestinians, target Israeli civilians, fire rockets (more rockets have landed in Gaza than in Israel!)… They dig up water pipes to turn into rockets. They steal fuel from power plants that could be used to power hospitals and desalination plants. They set up their bases and fire rockets from schools, hospitals, mosques, and residences. They are demanding war. Their founding charter entirely rejects any kind of peace at all. It’s not an accident.
Maybe if they didn’t bomb the designated ‘safe’ areas, people would believe them. Like that one man said: why go to the South and die there when I can die in my own house? Action/ reaction.
Sure, the very Israeli military who targetted and killed journalists in Lebanon and bombed and killed the wife and children of an Al Jazeera journalist whilst he was live on air from Gaza (and who even before this used a sniper to execute a journalist) are trying to avoid civilian casualties, something which we know because they tell us that, and we all know how murderers of journalists and their families are the most honest people around…
How does it feel, looking at the world from only one side?
how does it feel to not have anything to say in response to a well-thought-out point, but be incapable of leaving it alone, so you just have to say “boo, you’re on the other side as me!” and leave a downvote.
Holy shit Dan. Yeah, downpunxx, the account that copies and pastes genocidal screeds all over the fediverse has a well thought out point not worth refuting. Dude. WTF.
I’m saying that the post lacks all nuance
“THeY wEre GiVEn GAZa” how are you going to give someone their own land? You lunatics screeching like literal wife beaters that these people had it coming have made the entirety of all of this look so much worse than just the inexcusable genocide that it already is.
Imagine going into someone’s houses, beating the shut out of them daily, and giving them the garage to live in and complaining that they’re not greatlful and haven’t turned the garage into an amazing new place to live.
Also add in they’re not allowed to bring anything into or out of the garage without their permission. Some serious mental gymnastics from these people
Wild that someone downvotes you for saying this. It is literally the analogy of what has happened to the Palestinians but all the pro-israel crowd has their heads so far up their collective asses they can’t admit basic facts.
One part of your analogy that needs to be added is that they keep moving the walls of the garage in more and more to make more room for them and less for you. But hey why are you mad bro?
Let’s ask @danhakimi why they downvoted.
