Great effort and all but until we can get an .exe to run in windows to install the new system, this will not attract anybody but the 0.01%.
Yes, for us in the know it’s no biggie to get an USB stick, play with Rufus or the kind, fiddle with ”BIOS” but for the average user even the first step is just too much.
Windows can install new Windows and modify EFI stuff, and macOS can install new macOS so why can’t Linux use the same mechanisms? Especially as in the history there used to be some projects that could do this…
Best chance in decades to bring Linux to desktop and it looks like we blew it by being too accustomed to difficulty, not being united behind the effort and whatnot :(
I have no reason to believe the average person can’t manage a usb stick. They’re a common way for photos, videos, and records to be sent from one business office to another. I’ve never worked with anyone who had any particular difficulty using them, and my coworkers weren’t all especially intelligent or interested in computers.
I disagree. Sure, they are able to stick the drive to machine and use some easy tool (would need to be easier than Rufus) to write some data to it.
But then comes a big hurdle if USB boot is not the default: What is BIOS/UEFI? What key to press to get there? When do I press it? What are these text things? How do I navigate here? What exactly should I change? What is what of these drives listed? How to change the order? How to save? (Have witnessed this struggle a dozen times)
And IF they get through that step, then depending on distro they have very different kind of installation UI, all sorts of options they know nothing about, and they no longer have their browser and guide page open that they had when they started the operation.
We should not merely target the ”average person” but also, to a degree, the dumb masses below them. Look how simple the Windows 10 to Windows 11 installation has been made, there really is no way you can mess it up. If I remember correct, even upgrading from 7 to 10 was just: download ISO, double click to mount it, run setup.exe, click next a few times, and let it reboot and do its thing.
Installing an iso from a usb drive and installing an iso after mounting it as a virtual drive seem like they involve roughly the same level of technical skill to me. Booting from cd or usb was a routine school or business activity for decades. Mounting an iso as a drive has been built into Windows for a much shorter period of time. The last time I used Windows, you needed third party software for that. I would bet on a random person off the street to be able to do the first one more reliably than the second. But, more installation options are always better.
Yo, you’re giving me ideas. Maybe I can make use of my old laptop, get Windows on it (if possible), and try to do something like this. Could the average user run something through the terminal? I know PowerShell and some CMD. Or I could figure out how to GUI as well. I’d need to sketch out what such an app would do. Downloading a Linux distro would be step one. Not sure if I could make BIOS changes, though, and install. I guess with my current abilities, it’d end up being an auto ISO downloader and USB flasher at best. But I’d be down to learn and try. I’d need a basic Install Linux 101 guide, to “mimic” through a script. Could be a fun project.
Not my text but here’s what Gemini laid out, apparently projects like WubiUEFI do something like this but with caveats.
”
Project: “One-Click Linux” Installer
Objective: A simple .exe for non-technical users to install a full Linux distribution from Windows 10/11. The process will be fully automated after a single click.
Core Technologies & Components
The Windows Application (.exe)
GUI Framework: .NET (C#) to build a minimal user interface and leverage deep Windows integration.
Disk Partitioner: Script the built-in Windows diskpart.exe utility to automatically shrink the existing Windows partition and create a new one for Linux. Requires Administrator privileges.
Installer Preparation: Download a pre-selected Linux distribution (e.g., Linux Mint) and extract its core files.
The Bridge from Windows to Linux
Boot Configuration: Use Windows bcdedit.exe to create a temporary, one-time boot entry that points directly to the Linux installer, bypassing the normal Windows boot.
Automated Installation: Generate a preseed or kickstart script. This file will provide all the answers to the Linux installer automatically (language, keyboard, and instructions to use the partition created earlier).
The Modern Boot Solution (Post-Installation)
Boot Manager: rEFInd. The automated Linux install will install rEFInd. It is chosen for its superior auto-detection of both Windows and Linux, and its user-friendly graphical interface. It will automatically provide a clean, icon-based menu to choose an OS on startup.
Boot Method: EFI Stub. The Linux kernel will be launched directly by rEFInd as a bootable EFI application. This is a fast, clean, and modern method that avoids the complexity of older bootloaders. rEFInd will handle discovering the kernel and presenting it as a boot option.
”
Eh, now that I think about it, such a project would either need to take a lot of decisions for the user, or risk becoming too complex for giving the user options. I mean, I see partitioning, and I realise that’s something I hadn’t thought of. I assumed just an install, but what if the user wants dual boot? What distro to pick? How much space for each “boot”? Do we choose a specific DE or take the distro’s main or default? So many variables. I mean, it’s one thing to BAM! Ubuntu auto-installer .exe. Now, to allow for user choices… or not to? You either give options, which could be overwhelmimg to someone who might not even understand all that, or become simple and, in the process, heavily “opinionated”
Yup, now you touch one core problem why Linux in desktop cannot get to masses — too much fragmentation. Next to unlimited chain of options and preferences, many of which even lead to severe incompatibility issues.
Ubuntu some decade or two ago looked promising ”one distro to rule them all” but seems to have turned to shit since.
If you look at Windows or macOS, it’s basically just a version or two to choose from, and the most common one suits 90% or more.
The same should happen in Linux world too. If an ”easy install tool” like described above would offer just ~5 most common distros, in their most common variant, it would still be a tremendous step forward.
If someone is knowledgeable enough to have strong distro pref, or knows that they need a certain system component, they most likely are not the target audience anymore as they can handle a manual install too. The target user may not even know there are different distros, and will just pick the ”Linux version” based on a screenshot that looks familiar or interesting.
So IMO; no options other than the absolutely critical ones (like to dual boot or not). There shouldn’t be more than maybe 3 big things the user has to decide themselves, for everything else the Linux community as a whole MUST be able to take a hard look at themselves and decide what are the most viable, compatible and best supported branches, and unite behind those.
https://endof10.org/
Great effort and all but until we can get an .exe to run in windows to install the new system, this will not attract anybody but the 0.01%.
Yes, for us in the know it’s no biggie to get an USB stick, play with Rufus or the kind, fiddle with ”BIOS” but for the average user even the first step is just too much.
Windows can install new Windows and modify EFI stuff, and macOS can install new macOS so why can’t Linux use the same mechanisms? Especially as in the history there used to be some projects that could do this…
Best chance in decades to bring Linux to desktop and it looks like we blew it by being too accustomed to difficulty, not being united behind the effort and whatnot :(
I have no reason to believe the average person can’t manage a usb stick. They’re a common way for photos, videos, and records to be sent from one business office to another. I’ve never worked with anyone who had any particular difficulty using them, and my coworkers weren’t all especially intelligent or interested in computers.
I disagree. Sure, they are able to stick the drive to machine and use some easy tool (would need to be easier than Rufus) to write some data to it.
But then comes a big hurdle if USB boot is not the default: What is BIOS/UEFI? What key to press to get there? When do I press it? What are these text things? How do I navigate here? What exactly should I change? What is what of these drives listed? How to change the order? How to save? (Have witnessed this struggle a dozen times)
And IF they get through that step, then depending on distro they have very different kind of installation UI, all sorts of options they know nothing about, and they no longer have their browser and guide page open that they had when they started the operation.
We should not merely target the ”average person” but also, to a degree, the dumb masses below them. Look how simple the Windows 10 to Windows 11 installation has been made, there really is no way you can mess it up. If I remember correct, even upgrading from 7 to 10 was just: download ISO, double click to mount it, run setup.exe, click next a few times, and let it reboot and do its thing.
Installing an iso from a usb drive and installing an iso after mounting it as a virtual drive seem like they involve roughly the same level of technical skill to me. Booting from cd or usb was a routine school or business activity for decades. Mounting an iso as a drive has been built into Windows for a much shorter period of time. The last time I used Windows, you needed third party software for that. I would bet on a random person off the street to be able to do the first one more reliably than the second. But, more installation options are always better.
Yo, you’re giving me ideas. Maybe I can make use of my old laptop, get Windows on it (if possible), and try to do something like this. Could the average user run something through the terminal? I know PowerShell and some CMD. Or I could figure out how to GUI as well. I’d need to sketch out what such an app would do. Downloading a Linux distro would be step one. Not sure if I could make BIOS changes, though, and install. I guess with my current abilities, it’d end up being an auto ISO downloader and USB flasher at best. But I’d be down to learn and try. I’d need a basic Install Linux 101 guide, to “mimic” through a script. Could be a fun project.
Not my text but here’s what Gemini laid out, apparently projects like WubiUEFI do something like this but with caveats.
” Project: “One-Click Linux” Installer Objective: A simple .exe for non-technical users to install a full Linux distribution from Windows 10/11. The process will be fully automated after a single click.
Core Technologies & Components
Eh, now that I think about it, such a project would either need to take a lot of decisions for the user, or risk becoming too complex for giving the user options. I mean, I see partitioning, and I realise that’s something I hadn’t thought of. I assumed just an install, but what if the user wants dual boot? What distro to pick? How much space for each “boot”? Do we choose a specific DE or take the distro’s main or default? So many variables. I mean, it’s one thing to BAM! Ubuntu auto-installer .exe. Now, to allow for user choices… or not to? You either give options, which could be overwhelmimg to someone who might not even understand all that, or become simple and, in the process, heavily “opinionated”
Yup, now you touch one core problem why Linux in desktop cannot get to masses — too much fragmentation. Next to unlimited chain of options and preferences, many of which even lead to severe incompatibility issues.
Ubuntu some decade or two ago looked promising ”one distro to rule them all” but seems to have turned to shit since.
If you look at Windows or macOS, it’s basically just a version or two to choose from, and the most common one suits 90% or more.
The same should happen in Linux world too. If an ”easy install tool” like described above would offer just ~5 most common distros, in their most common variant, it would still be a tremendous step forward.
If someone is knowledgeable enough to have strong distro pref, or knows that they need a certain system component, they most likely are not the target audience anymore as they can handle a manual install too. The target user may not even know there are different distros, and will just pick the ”Linux version” based on a screenshot that looks familiar or interesting.
So IMO; no options other than the absolutely critical ones (like to dual boot or not). There shouldn’t be more than maybe 3 big things the user has to decide themselves, for everything else the Linux community as a whole MUST be able to take a hard look at themselves and decide what are the most viable, compatible and best supported branches, and unite behind those.