https://archive.is/FKuhi (reuters)

https://archive.is/MIdNc (afp)

Chinese Vice Premier He Lifeng met for about eight hours with U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent and U.S. Trade Representative Jamieson Greer in Geneva in their first face-to-face meeting since the world’s two largest economies heaped tariffs well above 100% on each other’s goods.

U.S. President Donald Trump said on Friday that an 80% tariff on Chinese goods “seems right”, suggesting for the first time a specific alternative to the 145% levies he has imposed on Chinese imports.

Neither side made any statements about the substance of the discussions nor signaled any progress towards reducing crushing tariffs as meetings at the residence of Switzerland’s ambassador to the U.N. concluded at about 8 p.m. local time. (1800 GMT)

The discussions are expected to restart on Sunday in the Swiss city, according to an individual familiar with the talks, who was not authorized to speak publicly.

The 80% number is just something that Trump posted on his social media early on Friday morning, before any meeting ever happened.


UPDATE Trump posted on truthsocial, 1 hour ago. He describes the meeting with the phrases “total reset” and “great progress”. I won’t believe this until I hear the perspective from China’s government.

https://archive.is/dI6Mc

  • xiaohongshu [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    7 hours ago

    Kind of, but not exactly. Let me try and see if I can simplify it a bit:

    China already has the world’s largest industrial capacity (31% of the world’s manufacturing capacity, compared to 18% in the US, and 5% for the EU and Japan each). There is no need for China to accumulate US dollars in order to finance its own development. That also means, there is no need for China to suppress its wages to make exports competitive (for the record, the average working class purchasing power in China is half that of the average working class in South Korea).

    From an MMT perspective, the People’s Bank of China can simply create the currency needed to develop all these amazing cities, technologies, infrastructure like high speed rails etc.

    However, the Chinese economic model (very neoliberal brained) is still stuck to very much to the model IMF has been recommended to developing countries - balance your budget (keep budget deficit within 3%), don’t spend more than what you can earn. This means that in order to finance internal development, you have to either earn foreign reserves (export goods to Western countries), or borrow from financial institutions (banks).

    For the former, a Chinese exporter sells goods to the US importer, earning US dollars in its US bank account. The Chinese exporter can now do three things:

    1. Use the dollar it earned to import goods/services sold in US dollar (trade for real goods/services)
    2. Use the dollar it earned to buy US securities (to earn interests)
    3. Convert the earnings to yuan and use the money to pay its workers, invest in its business locally etc.

    For the third option, the exporter sells the US dollars (in its US bank accounts) to the PBoC, who in turns uses the dollar to buy US treasuries or other dollar-denominated securities. This becomes the foreign reserves of the PBoC. Note that all of the dollar transactions involved never leaves US shores and always takes place within the US banking system.

    In turn, the PBoC creates an equivalent amount of yuan (backed by the dollar it just purchased from the exporter) in the Chinese bank account of the Chinese exporter, who can now in turn use the yuan to pay its workers and invest etc.

    The other way is to borrow from financial institutions, either foreign or local. But note that the loans that are created also have matching liabilities + interests. If you borrow 100k yuan, you have to pay back 100k to the lender + interest payment. No new net financial asset is created in this process. (Note that this is the primary mode of investment in China today that weighs just as much as the central bank creating new money from export earnings, and it is becoming a big issue for the solvency of many local banks and local/municipal governments)

    So, the more goods you export to the US, the more foreign currencies you accumulate, the more you can convert them into local currencies to spend locally. This is why developing countries run trade surplus, such that they can accumulate foreign currencies (the US simply prints its dollars out of thin air, without having to contribute anything tangible to the global) and finance their own development. This allows them to stay within the 3% budget deficit as imposed by the IMF, and using the trade surplus earnings to cover for their expenditures. And so, to keep their exports competitive, you as a developing country will always have to make sure your currency exchange rate is lower, suppress labor wages etc. to maintain that competitive advantage. This is also the so-called “middle income trap” - developing countries cannot make the leap into high income countries because they have been told to keep earning export revenues to finance their own domestic development.

    MMT says this is nonsense. MMT says that a government with monetary sovereignty (that creates its own currency, is not running a fixed exchange rate where its currency is pegged to a metal or another currency) can always finance its own development so long as it is backed by the availability of labor, resources, and technology.

    That means if you’re a poor developing country that has to import food and energy, usually kept impoverished by global imperialist institutions like the IMF and World Bank, you simply cannot create the money as you wish. But for China, it’s a different story - there may be food and raw resources that China has to import - but it still has the world’s largest industrial capacity and is technologically self-sufficient to not have to rely on advanced machineries from wealthy Western imperialist countries to keep their lights on.

    However, because the Chinese economists are all Western educated, neoliberal brained, they continue to stick to this model, orientating their economy to one that is heavily reliant on export-led growth. In other words, using Chinese labor and resources to send cheap goods to Western countries and get a bigger number in their bank statement in return.

    This was all going well in the 2000s as China became the world’s factory and enjoyed double digit growth. Then, the 2009 GFC happened, and starting from the US consumers, but soon spread across the world, the slump in consumption would hit the Chinese export-oriented economy hard.

    To mitigate the crisis, the Chinese central government prioritized infrastructure building domestically, to absorb the loss in export revenues. This culminated in the infamous 4 trillion yuan stimulus, most of which financed by bond issuance. And it did work - not only did China not experience global recession, due to the timely reallocation of economic activity into construction, but even saved the surrounding economies from complete disaster. For example, Australia was saved by China’s infrastructure building phase due to increasing demand of imported raw materials.

    Now, before we move on, I need to introduce the unique style of Chinese governance. As opposed to the stereotype that present day China is run by dictators with a centralized bureaucracy, the matter of fact is that Chinese economy is highly decentralized. Local governments contribute nearly half of the national tax revenues, and 70-85% of the budget expenditures. The central government in Beijing, in turn, controls the local governments through its authority to promote local officials. So Beijing sets a goal for promotion, the local officials work to meet that goal in order to get promoted. One of the main performance indicator is GDP growth, and this will become very important later on.

    The decentralization of authority was one of the most significant changes under Deng’s reform, but the key event that would precipitate in the property market bubble today was the 1994 Tax-Sharing Reform, that conferred local governments with the authority of land financing.

    So, back to 2009, with export revenues falling, the local governments began to find themselves under financial strain. Their inability to pay back outstanding debt also denied them from obtaining fresh credits from the financial institutions. Furthermore, the cut in GDP growth numbers almost certainly meant that they’re going to miss the score needed for promotion.

    The 4 trillion yuan stimulus aimed at infrastructure building came at just the right time, for local governments with the power of land financing. The keep the GDP growth numbers up, local governments bet on leasing/selling land initially owned by the state to drive up revenue.

    The schemes are extremely varied, “innovative” and complex to skirt various laws and legal enforcements, but it follows the general pattern: local governments would use its state authority to pressure financial institutions (local banks) to release loans to property developers, who would use the loans to finance building new cities, housing, infrastructures, high speed rail, you name it. The local governments would then bet on the land value to rise with development, and the revenues earned from selling/leasing the land at high price would pay off the debt they have borrowed to finance public utilities/domestic development.

    The reason we know all this in explicit detail, ironically, is because of the Evergrande’s court case. But the investment in infrastructure building under the relationship formed under trifecta of local governments-financial institutions-property developers would become a primary mode of sustaining GDP growth in the face of falling export revenues. Many local officials made the career promotions of their lifetime during this period.

    Because local governments were not allowed to issue debt, from 2009-2015, the borrowing was initially performed by the local governments setting up the Local Government Financing Vehicles (LGFV, effectively shadow banks). The borrowing that took place under this period would build up the so-called “hidden debt”, because they are not included in official accountings.

    By the mid-2010s, it became apparent that the hidden debt problem is running out of control. We still don’t know the exact amount of cumulative hidden debt to this day, either because the government is worried about a market panic should the true number be revealed, or because even the central government has lost tracked of them. In either case, the amount has to be huge.

    And so by 2015, the central government became fed up with the local government’s reckless hidden debt problem, and directly conferred the local governments with the authority to issue bonds/debt themselves. In other words, the central government no longer want to keep “bailing out” the excessive debt taken out by the local governments. You want to borrow, you shall be responsible for paying them yourselves.

    (continued in the next comment)

    • xiaohongshu [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      8 hours ago

      (continued from above)

      This further emboldened the local governments to directly sell bonds and accumulating the debt on their official books. By 2016, scholars began to raise alarms about the excessive housing capacity in China (note: 2016!). This should have signaled the local governments to stop building new cities, right?

      Not so fast, because the most egregious part has yet to come. In 2015, the Monetization for Shantytown Redevelopment act (棚改货币化) from the PRC State Council will become the catalyst for a property market speculation frenzy at a scale never seen before in human history.

      What is Shantytown Redevelopment (棚改)? In short, it is simply the local governments identifying old, dilapidated houses/buildings within urban areas, and rebuilding them to fit modern living and safety standards. This would involve resettling the original residents somewhere else, at least temporarily, while the municipalities work on the construction tasks. This is nothing new, it was a program started back in 2004.

      However, by the mid-2010s, the proliferation of new cities and the excess housing capacity had prompted a new innovation of how to take care of residents living in these dilapidated housing conditions. How about instead of spending money to rebuild, we simply give them the money to buy new houses in the new fancy condos and apartments? (A note on where did the money come from: the local governments borrow from the banks to pay for the redevelopment, and now they’re borrowing to give people the money to buy new houses)

      And so, the Monetization of Shantytown Redevelopment would usher in the craziest of the property speculation era. Initially, only those who are qualified received the money to purchase the new houses. Completely unforeseen by even the governments themselves, the new liquidity injected for housing purchase immediately pumped up the housing prices. Soon, even other residents began to take out mortgage loans to jump in on the bandwagon, for the fear of missing out on this golden opportunity. Everyone was afraid that if they had waited a bit longer, they would miss the wave of buying into the properties at the low point.

      Initially, this only took place in Tier 3/4 cities. But soon, as housing prices shot up, even Tier 1/2 cities could no longer contain themselves. They simply could not let this opportunity pass by them while their lower tiered cities are raking in all the profits. This frenzy would spread to the entire country, with endless new cities - cities that even to this day have like 3-4% occupancy rate only! - proliferating all across the country. Tier 1/2 cities sucked people in from Tier 3/4 cities, while Tier 3/4 cities losing their citizens in turn put in a lot of effort to attract new migrants from the provincial towns and rural villages. (Note: this also screwed over a lot of long term urban planning that many cities already had in place, since the influx and egress of citizens shifted the composition of the type of labor/skills etc.)

      As anyone would have known, this cannot possibly last. By late 2016, the central government announced the “housing purchase restriction” act (限购令) to mitigate the reckless housing price inflation. It restricts citizens from purchasing houses they don’t intend to live in to curb housing speculation, and in some cities, non-citizens (citizens from other cities) from buying up properties.

      And yet, housing prices continued to rise. The policy imposed by the central government had completely failed to mitigate property speculation, and people simply found new ways to skirt the rules.

      Let’s examine for a moment why this is the case: if you have been following everything I’ve written, you would have noticed that in China, local governments ARE the landlords! The very same local governments that the central leadership relied on collecting tax revenues and spending for internal development, have taken an “all-in” approach on property speculation! If you fight to keep the land price low, you are fighting the local governments who are effectively the backbone of the nation’s economy. Now do you see how much of a problem this poses to the central leadership?

      This twist could not have been more ironic given that Mao had purged all the landlords back in 1954 under the Three Socialist Transformations. The landlords did come back, but this time as local governments!

      The property market bubble would reach its zenith in 2019. By then, many households and even companies that had nothing to do with real estate, have invested heavily in the property market by taking out huge mortgage loans. Nobody wanted to miss out on the bandwagon. This also meant that much of people’s and corporation’s savings are now tied to the real estate, and if the land/property prices fall, so too will their investments. In other words, if their savings are wiped out, they will be more reluctant to spend/invest in the local economy, leading to a deflationary spiral.

      Finally, we get to the consumption problem.

      Amidst all this frenzy, a global pandemic was brewing. In 2020, Covid would happen and China immediately went into a lockdown that would last until early 2023. There was a year of opening the economy in 2021, post-Delta/vaccine, but with various restrictive measures on migration, and the economy went into lockdown again post-Omicron, when the liberal Shanghai decided to defy Beijing’s Zero Covid policy to emulate “Western style” limited lockdown, leading to an unmitigated spread of Covid across the country and breaking the containment put in place over the past two years.

      Nevertheless, local governments went into even more severe financial strain as the property prices began to peter out and even started to fall by 2020, and made worse by the falling export revenues due to complete stop in shipping as the global supply chain was interrupted by the pandemic.

      The Evergrande implosion, one of the biggest property developers in China, took place from 2021-2023, wiping out a total of 2.4 trillion yuan in people’s savings. This was certainly only the tip of the iceberg, as many property developers have similarly engaged in shady deals and misallocation of the money that have been sucked into purchasing properties (looking at you, Vanke).

      With the dual implosion in exports (Covid) and investment (property bubble), Chinese society in general favors savings to soften potential financial trouble down the road. For example, a contraction in economy means you could lose your job six months from now. And so, people started saving/refusing to spend in the face of economic uncertainty.

      Initially, people thought this was just the post-Covid opening up period, and it would just take more time for the economy to revive. By mid-2024, it became apparent that the economic resuscitation promised by the reopening had not arrived, and consumer sentiment fell even deeper. This is actually what is happening in China today, with a deflationary spiral as people prefer to save than to spend, in spite of all the subsidies/promotion programs initiated by the governments for discount EVs and electronics.

      And deflation is much much worse than inflation, which is what the government is desperately trying to target. Inflation means you have more demand than your productive capacity, and you can always invest in productive capacity to increase the supply to match the demand.

      Deflation is the opposite - you have excess productive capacity but nobody wants to buy them! And if nobody is buying them, factories are going to scale down production and layoff workers, leading into further deflationary spiral. That means you are becoming even more reliant on exports! And at this key moment,the US and the EU imposed tariffs on Chinese goods, making it even more difficult to sustain your production level.

      And now we finally come to the crux of the problem: why are people reluctant to spend? Why would you be reluctant to spend money to consume?

      In two words: wealth inequality. This is the elephant in the room that economists keep ignoring. With the falling property prices wiping out people’s savings, and with businesses failing following the asset prices falling as well as the intense competition driven by US imposed tariffs, income has not been increasing for most working people.

      The way out of this deflation problem is of course raising the income of the Chinese working class, increasing their purchasing power to absorb the productive capacity of both domestic and foreign goods. This will mean the yuan exchange rate will go up, and China will lose its net exporter status, and I have written about how a Chinese-style Marshall Plan is the path forward.

      • burlemarx@lemmygrad.ml
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        3 hours ago

        Sorry, but the way you are posting your claims here is just big wall of text with very bold claims with no sources. Unless your tactic is to overwhelm everyone with text just to make a point, you should write a proper article, properly handling your sources. You could just be using Gen AI content, for all I care.

        • xiaohongshu [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          2 hours ago

          Yes that’s what I was doing, by writing fully sourced articles until my laptop blew up a couple months back. Now I had to rewrite everything from scratch.

          Believe it or not I typed all of those out from memory lol.

          I would be surprised if AI can write all this stuff. Some of the information you’d be hard pressed to find on the English speaking internet, although I’m sure a quick google could reveal all the facts I’ve cited, but not the way how all these information are put together with a coherent, material analysis.

      • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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        8 hours ago

        Deflation seems extremely easy to solve? Literally just give people free money! What am I misunderstanding about this?

        • xiaohongshu [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          7 hours ago

          Yes, when unconstrained by the neoliberal framework. This is why I said a Marshall Plan with Chinese characteristics is one way to fundamentally resolve the problem.

          It is more elaborate than just “print money” though as it has to be fiscally targeted. MMT suggests a price anchor through Jobs Guarantee, and the USSR under Stalin had a dual circuit monetary system to target development while preventing inflation. Both are very similar in concept though differing in implementation.

          And if you look at the consumption stimulus program that Chinese government has unveiled recently, apart from more subsidies (which will temporarily boost sales but not a permanent fix), it’s still very much the “look our household debt to GDP ratio is still lower than Western countries and Japan, let’s lower credit requirements so people can borrow more to consume.” Anything to avoid directly raising the income of the working class (except in small doses).