For those who are unaware: A couple billionaires, a pilot, and one of the billionaires’ son are currently stuck inside an extremely tiny sub a couple thousand meters under the sea (inside of the sub with the guys above).
They were supposed to dive down to the titanic, but lost connection about halfway down. They’ve been missing for the past 48 hours, and have 2 days until the oxygen in the sub runs out. Do you think they’ll make it?
The 5 submariners chances of being rescued are very slim at this point but much much higher than the 500 migrants still missing off the coast of Greece who took to the waters not for a joy ride but to escape war and seek a better life.
I understand, not that their lives don’t matter. It’s just that we don’t pay attention to the ones that really do.
I’m a bit confused that this is receiving so much attention. What’s so special about this case compared to all the other cases of people being lost at sea every year, besides them being rich?
Honestly, this case is somewhat extraordinary, in a deeply disturbing way.
First there was this amazing quote from the CEO who is missing on the craft right now
“You know, at some point, safety is just pure waste,” Rush told CBS’ David Pogue during an episode of his “Unsung Science” podcast. “I mean, if you just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed, don’t get in your car, don’t do anything. At some point, you’re going to take some risk, and it really is a risk-reward question.”
Second, aside from being made from questionable experimental materials, the sub was being controlled by an old, off brand xbox controller. There were numerous design and safety issues that were known at the time of departure. They kinda just did whatever in the F they wanted to. It’s a millionaire game of Fuck Around and Find Out and they’re not used to finding out.
Third, the damage waiver
The disclaimer, read out by CBS correspondent David Pogue, read: “This experimental submersible vessel has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body, and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death.”
A nervous-looking Pogue makes a face and says, “Where do I sign?” in the footage recorded when he went on the $250,000 (£195,000) trip to see the Titanic at the end of last year.
I get that it’s just some rich idiots (and one of their kids) crossing the river styx, but it’s not very often you see such amazing disregard for basic safety.
I don’t get why the Logitech controller is so focused on. I get that it’s probably not the right controller due to it’s age and wireless only nature but COTS parts are often more reliable than in-house ones. The lack of certification as you mentioned is a much larger issue.
Any game controller, would be insufficient to put 5 peoples lives in danger.
If you were going to use a game controller to do so anyway, you’d use one that can be easily replaced, maybe something manufactured in the past decade. That F710 is old (2011) and honestly didn’t rate all that well compared to other controllers of it’s time. It’s wireless, adding needless risk.
The certification is all part of it. The control systems need to have backups. The gamepad aspect is interesting because it’s blatantly spitting in the face of safety which seemed to be the CEO’s style anyway.
Would it have been better than a new xbox controller? I’m not sure, perhaps not if it the new one was at least wired.
dear God just think if the part that failed was the controllers batteries
I just … can’t
I wouldn’t trust that controller for a dungeon run in the Elder Scrolls Online and here’s this dude visiting the Titanic in person with one. They did say he has backups on board, though.
I work on robotics and drones for the military and we use game controllers for teleoperation all the time. There are some times we use more rugged and robust controllers, but they are essentially just expensive, yellow Playstation controllers with e-stop buttons on the bottom (look up Fort robotics controller).
I think you’d be surprised at how often the military uses game controllers for mission critical tech. The convergent design of game controllers has kind of solved the problem of minimal, handheld, input-output machines that are capable of commanding difficult procedures.
Do you think it’s fun killing people and pretending it’s a video game?
What? They don’t pretend it’s a game, they just use game controllers. Killing people is the game for them.
I don’t operate anything in the field but I design and build the stuff. Fortunately, I haven’t had to build any weapon systems or combat vehicles yet because I also have some moral apprehension to that as well, but I try not to shame those who do work on that stuff if I can avoid it. It’s a pretty standard meme that wide-eyed aerospace engineers with dreams of space travel get stuck designing missiles to pay the bills. I’m sure there’s not that many engineers in weapons tech that wouldn’t switch to rockets or self driving cars in a heartbeat if they could afford to and had an in.
Hey I appreciate the honest response. I was being a bit of a dick and I feel bad now. Peace.
flying any passengers with em?
Rarely in my line of work but we do do it sometimes. To your point, outside of what I do I’m not sure how often game controllers are used in situations like passenger flight or submarines where you can’t just mash the e-stop button and bail out.
Yeah, I know the navy has used them for ages on robotic control.
And fly by wire is everywhere now. But the systems involved, they’re pretty hardened.
I think a wired control on it’s own isn’t a horrible sin, it just seems to me that in a world with as much tech as we have sitting around, someone can make something a little more rugged for something as critical as this particular part.
And of coure the elephant in the room is we have little data about this whole setup. It’s possible he had a laptop in there where he could open up a terminal, or maybe he had access to the lines and motors directly. If someone can reach back and trigger the ballast tank themselves, it negates a lot of control worries.
Good money is on explosive compression anyway. That hull shape is dodgy AF
Nobody is objecting to it being a standard commercial controller. It’s been widely noted that the US military uses X-Box controllers for drone operation. It’s the fact that it’s a cheap/off-brand item compared to an official Sony, Nintendo or MS controller being used in a life-critical situation, and as you note, wireless.
Wait, so they’ve done this dive before? For some reason I thought it was the first time
For me, it’s because this situation is a nightmare situation. I can’t think of many more aweful ways to go. There is a chance that right now people are dying in a tube at the bottom of the ocean. Slowly. Or even worse, they could be on the surface. Able to see out their window but suffocating to death just hoping to see a ship come by. Maybe they saw a ship and it passed by. Maybe they died instantly is a rapid collapse.
I dunno, it’s just the epitome of horror. I keep finding myself thinking about possibilities and what it’s be like and what I’d do.
If they’re on the surface the interior is probably sloshing in vomit, as well as everything else.
It’s mostly the being rich thing.
It’s really sad that something like this gets so much news coverage and international support, while poor people are facing similar fates and we all pretend it’s not happening.
I understand the news coverage. These are folks who are relatable to a lot of western audiences. People aspire to their wealth. The international support and rescue efforts though are a little shameful. You don’t see this kind of efforts when it’s migrants fleeing war and oppression.
I see the attention on the war in Ukraine similarly. What Russia is doing is shameful and I’m glad Ukraine is getting so much help. At the same time Yemen has it much worse. Hardly anyone even knows there is a war happening there, but it’s American built bombs that are dropping on neighborhoods. They’re not quite white and relatable enough to get us all putting their flag on our Twitter profiles.
the quality of the sub really triggers my schadenfreude
More mysterious. Spookier. Generally more novel. Like you said, people get lost at sea all the time. People rarely get lost thousands of miles below sea.
Nah, it’s only 4km. If they weren’t lazy billionaires, they’d get out and walk home.
One thing I can say is if they ever do find the sub intact, its very likely these guys recorded their last hours on their phones and we are very likely to see that at some point… talk about nightmare fuel.
I agree with your general point for sure, but how deep do you think the ocean is?
I already confessed to being dumb 😭
It being so completely ridiculous. If a boat sinks, it just sinks… bad luck.
But this was some crazy person using some jerry-rigged submarine and then rich people actually trusting that.
They have money
They did have money but the people involved Tham Luang cave rescue didn’t and that received a ton of attention. Similarly with the Chilean miners stuck underground for 2 months. You also have Kathy Fiscus (an old story but well known at the time) and Nutty Putty caving incident. There is no shortage of similar stories about people getting stuck in places that received wide attention.
The fact they are they rich is only really influencing where they ended up and how they got there.
Traditional media coverage + social media hype. Add in the fact that it’s a group of billionaires gallivanting in the deep sea. It’s a recipe for becoming a media sensation across all types of people.
Probably the significance of the dive site, and I’m not sure how many commerical submarines go missing every year, maybe a few private ones, but seldom in waters this deep.
It seems you’ve already identified the main part. Also the fact that it is a sexy story, shipwreck squared
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I think it’s because the story about a missing submersible is unusual, and moreover, it’s about a rescue attempt. This makes it more interesting than many other, albeit more dreadful, news stories.
750 people drowning is also unusual, and there’s also been rescue attempts.
All these victims have loved ones, and i don’t wish death on anyone, but for the billionaires I find it quite hard to care much.
I still hope they’re saved, though; and if they are I very much hope the experience will have changed them.
Unfortunately it is not that unusual since the EU stopped Mare Nostrum to save money
750 people drowning is also unusual
It’s terrible but not that unusual.
That’s just not the same. Drowning is quick and if you don’t save them immediately they’re most likely dead. Slowly suffocating in a sub while the clock ticks and something can be done about it is a different story.
Learn to care.
You’re assuming they’re suffocating, when the smallest fault in the hull’s integrity would make the thing implode, killing them before they realized what was happening.
Like everyone, my ability to care has limits. You can’t worry and care about everything. I’ll give my fucks for those who didn’t grow rich exploiting others, thanks.
sure. It has nothing to do with the fact that in one of cases they are 5 billionaires while in the other one they are 750 poor migrants. No, totally not.
Not entirely no, I didn’t see any news outlet leading the story with “5 Billionaires missing after Submersible lost contact”. For quite some time we didn’t even know who was on board. It’s more the fact that boats in the Mediterranean sink all the time, it’s still tragic but we know that that’s an issue we have now (most people unfortunately seem to have decided that they do not care that much). A submersible going missing and the coast guards of 2 countries looking for them, while thei only have air for a couple days, no one knowing where they are and it involving the titanic guarantees clicks, it’s almost like a movie plot. The fact that they are wealthy is certainly not the reason for it though, it’s the circumstances surrounding it, it’s unusual. People also know how ships work and why they capsize, while most people don’t have the slightest idea how deep sea submersibles work.
So yes, the ship capsizing and killing that many people is horrible and should get more attention, especially from the Goverments involved. It’s ridiculous that we let those poor people drown by the thousands and treat the ones who made it like scum. But I’m not convinced the Titanic story got traction BECAUSE the victims have money.
so you think that 2 governments would had started spending millions if 5 migrants had somehow been trapped in the seabed of the Mediterranean?
5 migrants? No fucking way. 5 average citizens of any developed nation? Sure. We perform expensive and resource intensive search and rescue operations for people lost in the wilderness or out at sea all the time. And once the media brings attention to it, there’s a lot of pressure to keep the funding going, otherwise next election cycle people are going to remember the current leadership as “those guys who just left some poor people to die to save money.”
really? The first point of information I found out was that it cost 250k to get on.
"hey did you hear about the submarine that’s lost?
“no?”
“It cost 250k to get on, to go see the titanic wreck”
pretty much how my entire day went yesterday with various coworkers
That may be true to your experience but for the first few days I heard about this story it had nothing to do with the who or how much it cost. Stories with novelty will always sell more than stories without much novelty. Edit: And I’m not saying that’s right. The accident in Greece is a horrible tragedy, and we should value everyone’s lives equally no matter how much wealth they have. There are legitimate points where we as a society turn a blind eye to the poor (always). But, this is not a story that’s surprising why it’s getting so much attention. It’s gross how some people in this comment section are choosing to increase their hatred toward the rich rather than increasing their compassion for the poor
The Thailand cave rescue was all over the news and they were poor.
Its about novelty, nothing more nothing less.
A bunch of rich ppl have died on Mt Everest this year, nobody gives a shit as its a common occurrence.
And they were diving to look at the titanic, everyone’s favourite maritime disaster.
I don’t disagree, but missing sub is an unusual phenomenon and mystery that gets people interested.
I don’t think the billionaires part is all that important, I didn’t know about it until today. The Kursk, the kids trapped in a cave, the miners that have spent months in a mine, those were all news too.
But yea immigrants from war-torn regions - nobody cares unless they have “blond hair and blue eyes”.
The Greece tragedy is lacking the irony and hubris of this.
I mean, it’s a tourist submersible that was aiming to bring billionaires to view the Titanic wreckage and it likely got wrecked itself. And they named the submersible Titan.
The sub’s company OceanGate was dinged by a former employee for all sorts of safety issues and they fired and sued him. There are also lots of choice quotes from the CEO (who happens to be on the vessel) about moving fast and breaking things, and regulations stifling innovation. So there’s some possible karma involved.
“OceanGate” sounds a lot like Heaven’s Gate right now ;P
That’s what I’m more upset about.
Who gives a shit about a couple of billionaires. Why does this have to be a world-wide news story? Why don’t we care about the 100s of refugees that die all the time in maritime accidents and why are those things dominating the news?
Time and time again we give the rich people all of our attention. Fuck that. We shouldn’t be letting the media direct our attention like this.
People tend to care more about the stuff that happens closer to them, or is somehow related to them. You probably don’t care all that much about the armed conflict in Mali between the government, ISIS and Wagner Group.
if you live in europe, the Mediterranean sea is you know, right next to you. And way much closer than the distance of the titanic to the shore in America, which is about 1000 nautical miles.
I don’t know anything about Mali, which is closer to to me than Titanic, but I do know a lot about the Titanic.
Sadly I don’t think so. This incident was absolutely preventable. Someone warned them about this and they got fired. A makeshift vessel that wasn’t inspected/certified, immersed to almost 3 times the rated depth, controlled by a wireless Logitech gamepad from 2010 with no redundancy and only 96 hours of oxygen. I really really hope for a last minute miracle though…
Do you mean imploding? Because if they didn’t implode, being stuck in a sub for days, slowly waiting to suffocate, ist fucking horrible.
Thats my worst nightmare! Their toilet is just a tiny bottle so they’re all gonna be pissing, shitting and puking on each other for days, arguing everytime someone starts hyperventilating. fuck that.
Yeah, it sucks so much, it really can’t get much worse. Imagine after probably 36h of absolute terror, you finally fall asleep for a while. You dream about something nice, only to wake up again in this tube of desolation, realizing that you reached your final destination.
It really depends on how they went. Sudden implosion of the hull, quick and easy.
Floating around for days until your air runs out, wondering if someone will find you… Not so much.
I read somewhere when air runs out you just fall asleep
I imagine it’s prolly hours of gasping for breath before that though.
depends if they can get rid of the carbon dioxide.
if there’s a constant low carbon dioxide atmosphere in the sub, they’ll suffocate peacefully, as humans can’t detect lack of oxygen, just too much carbon dioxide.That’s why you go moronic in a decompression in an airplane, body doesn’t get enough oxygen, but can get rid of the carbon dioxide, and you don’t notice you’re suffocating
Nope sadly a 250k coffin
I think they are gone. Safety regulations are a thing for a reason.
It did lead me to reading about the dives that went far lower to the Challenger Deep.
The wiki is
There is only so much others can regulate when you are building an inverted rocketship
They are paying their price right now. Other dives have gone much deeper, safer. This guy is a fly by night con guy in my opinion.
Read the Bloomberg piece in him.
By the way used to work a lot in defense procurement. There are a ton of regs they do follow, though they sure as hell don’t care about RoHs for the most part.
Here is the link to the Bloomberg archive to bypass paywall
Straight link https://www.denverpost.com/2023/06/21/titanic-tour-leader-loved-risk-and-called-safety-a-pure-waste/
This guy risk-rewards.
This is going to come up in engineering safety classes for years. If the CEO says safety is a pure waste, you need to leave that job.
He has a slightly valid point, that at some extent safety can be overdone and you’re wasting time and money. However… repeated instances without a disaster (short of say, decades worth) don’t prove safety precautions are unnecessary, but one catastrophe can prove the the opposite.
There’s a desire for low regulation, and then there’s wilful disregard of what professional bodies are saying…
unlikely. sub rescues are hardly successful. Their sub could have imploded, fast way to die. Had a power failure wich would takes days to die either from a lack of o2 or possibly the cold. Or it reached the surface and they got to look out at thet ocean until about noon their time tomorrow unable to open the hatch and slowly die from a lack of air.
Short answer: no
Long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOO
I suspect they imploded.
These super deep subs are traditionally not reused very long, because the stress of the water pressing and then releasing weakens them. The more compression-decompression cycles they take the faster they degrade.
From all the reports, they got a lot of reports of issues that they ignored. I read that one of the reporters who saw it found it to be very jury rigged together. Apparently it was not certified in any way.
Even if they did survive and the ballast worked correctly, they would surface quickly (decompression sickness?) and cannot open the hatch from the inside. The thing doesn’t float above the water, so its going to be a pain to find. Also they didn’t paint it bright orange with blinking lights, its white, gray, and blue.
Overall, a lot of poor decisions and ignoring advice lead to disaster.
Even if they did survive and the ballast worked correctly, they would surface quickly (decompression sickness?)
Decompression sickness is a concern only if they suffered compression. But the main problem, as I see it, is that the sub was made from materials that are famously brittle and tend to degrade over many cycles of pressure and release (resin, carbon fiber, etc). So the likely failure mode is catastrophic failure of the sub under pressure.
There’s a reason most deep sea stuff is made out of steel: it’s somewhat ductile and recovers from compression with minimal change in properties.
Not an expert, but I don’t think the air pressure inside the sub changes, so decompression sickness should be impossible. Don’t quote me on that, though
This would be correct. However, I suspect the air pressure in the sub did change. Very rapidly.
Unfortunately this seems the most realistic scenario.
Of all the various ways to provide emergency rescue assistance, it appears that they’ve included almost nothing which would help them in the event of an underwater failure that prevented surfacing (i.e. emergency ballast release failing).
Apparently it was not certified in any way
My understanding of this is limited to the two paragraphs on CNN, but there is a process for “classing” vessels. The owners decided not to do so as the process only certified that the vessel itself is safe for use, and does not verify the procedures for operation or the training of the crew. Their logic for not classing was that most ocean failures are the result of poor procedures or poor crew decisions, ignoring entirely that the reason most failures fall into those to cases is because the vessels themselves are vetted (via the classing process) to eliminate the hardware as a failure mode. It’s almost poetic that the man in charge of that decision is on the craft.
Also these depths are usually only explored with unmanned drones, not makeshift tuna cans with store parts
Being realistic, they’re probably gonna all be dead, and may never be found
The sub will never be found is my guess too… its a huge ocean and with no beacon, its just another lump.
I mean, I hope they survive but I’m not holding my breath.
This comment had me gasping.
way to sink my mood
Holding my breath. Oh dear
No. Chances are high that that submarine just imploded in a millisecond and they just instantly died. Why else would it stop sending pings and completely dissappear otherwise?
I cant speak for myself but i think communication in general is a very well understood topic. If that fails you can just assume everyone is dead. I am not sure if the banging is real tho or if it was something else
Power failure?
Power failure is my guess too, then they would have just drifted down to the bottom and froze to death in a few hours. Terrible way to die.
Folks, the Titan submersible is a capsule that travelers are sealed into ** from the outside.** The passengers could be adrift on the surface, the air could run out, and they could theoretically suffocate on the surface. It’s locked with bolts from the outside. Yeah, the 96 hours of oxygen could be stretched if the passengers conserved their oxygen. That is, if they are not a part of the debris field that was located near the Titanic. Each passing minute now is increasingly likely to change this from rescue to recovery.
