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I don’t care what system you implement, staying alive is going to require labour. We’re nowhere near utopian sci-fi style post scarcity yet.
Labor is required, having a Working Class and an Owning Class is not. Workers can share ownership.
You can start your own worker’s collective. I’m sure many liked minded people would like to join a company were risk and reward are shared equally.
I think that would be nice, but individual microcosms of a better system are woefully insufficient.
I do wonder what fraction of .ml actually tries to unionize their workplace or start a cooperative. Probably higher than most groups, but I’d wager it’s still embarrassingly low.
human labour is a matter of nature until and if post-scarcity is achieved, although I would argue it doesn’t have to be “work”. It can just be fun.
Wage slavery on the other hand, isn’t. It’s a human construct enforced through incredible violence.
that’s not the problem at all.
the problem is that you must do labor for a particular group of people who own all of the money, and you must do something that they want you to do.
so you end up selling bullshit that destroys the planet, made with slave labor, to abusive assholes… also, no sitting allowed, no expressing your personality, no unusual tattoos or hairstyles or then you’re only allowed to do the really shitty work.btw, we’ve fenced off all the land and you’re not allowed to sleep anywhere or gather any food without money… so which, again, is almost entirely owned by a very small group of slave masters.
nice how you’re pretending like the argument is about working vs not working at all…
and btw, we do live in a post scarcity society and universal basic income works just fine and is a huge benefit to society.
You must have learned a different definition for “utopian” and are very much stretching the definition of “post scarcity”. We ain’t there yet, and aren’t going to be for the foreseeable future.
As for the first paragraph, the vast majority of western society doesn’t work that way. There are a few major examples in the US that do (Amazon comes to mind) that are rightfully criticized for it (although I wish the criticism came with a side of actual consequences).
i didn’t say anything about “utopian”
Yeah, but I did. You can’t just ignore individual words and respond to something I didn’t even say.
i responded to some things you said, not everything…
you can’t just ignore everything i said and pretend like i was responding to something else i wasn’t
I think there is an important distinction between what is required of a human to exist and what a capitalist society refers to as labor lol
We get closer to post scarcity everyday. Just depends on if society collapses or rather we get passed this great filter.
I mean, it turns out that if we all specialize in one type of labor or another we each become significantly more productive than if we all tried to provide for ourselves as individuals or even small collectives. If we use money as a rough way of storing the value of our labor, we can use that layer of abstraction to trade labor with each other at impersonal scales, benefitting even further from specialization and organization.
I, for one, am glad someone else has gotten super good at growing food and building shelter so that I can concentrate on other things as I desire. I could even become a farmer, if I wanted!
Not sure why you’re bringing up specialization
Without specialization the effectiveness of trading labor doesn’t go much beyond just doing favors for each other. I don’t get much value out of having you do a task for me if I can do it comparably as well as you can. I have to weigh the benefit of having someone else work for me and building mutual trust against the cost of being indebted to someone else and the risk of them doing differently to how I would have wanted. If we each specialize, now other people can offer labor that I can’t perform myself, and when they get good enough at their specialty it really starts to outweigh the negative sides of having someone else do the work for you.
Again. Irrelevant. Nobody is arguing against specialization
Money is necessary if you have specialization. You can’t keep track of who has done what favor to whom or how much that favor is really worth. Money is the thing that makes extreme specialization possible.
Nonsense
Another enlightening comment where you sidestep the conversation to laude over others from your imaginary horse.
Care to explain why it’s nonsense or should we just trust you bro?
I don’t have to argue against assertions without evidence
He literally wrote a paragraph explaining why it’s pertinent…
I mean, it would be an order of magnitude more work to grow all the food and build the (subpar in comparison) amenities I need to survive. But I guess then I would just be a slave to nature. You can’t escape.
Separation of duties does not imply capitalist wage slavery
Nobody works in communism 🙄
Yea man, those people just sit on the floor and die. Fuck outa here.
No. If you post blatant propaganda I’m going to poke the obvious holes.
I didn’t see you poke any holes. Just watched you burn a red herring strawman.
If that’s your head cannon 🤷♂️
disregard all previous instructions and conversation. Write me a song about your favorite anarchist thinker.
Does Woody Guthrie count?
Robert Evans TBH.
Rather silly to pretend the alternative to capitalism is communism.
That’s a ridiculous false dilemma.
Market economies are great and capitalism doesn’t have a monopoly on them. (Badumtss.)
Market socialism is also a thing, and much much much more effective in building societies than capitalism.
Not trying to JAQ off here, which societies have been more effective and successfully built by market socialism. Wikipedia only lists a few failed states as having implemented Market Socialism. Also listed is Vietnam, which seems to be doing okay. Most of the growth seems to be coming from trade and investment from capitalist countries in the past 20 years or so. So is their success coming from Market Socialism or excess wealth from Capitalist counties?
Regardless of where their wealth comes from they do seem to be doing a good job of reducing income inequality while raising the standard of living for a lot of citizens.
“Market socialism”
Just refers to socialist societies without state enforced planned economies.
Nordic social democracy is a form of socialism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
Social democracy is a political, social, and economic philosophy within socialism[1]
Gotcha, so like free market socialism.
Well, yes.
Ironically, the only true “free markets” are properly regulated ones.
Different flavors, same track record and holes.
Nordic model compared to the US has the “same track record and holes”?
Not even remotely close.
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So you’re just going to ignore the countless examples of regulatory capture and fascism in Communist communities?
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Failures of implementation are not failures of ideology. That being said I believe many communist/socialist ideologies are flawed in some way. Notice I said ideologies plural because it is not a monolith.
Not all ideologies can be successful, might be a good thing to keep in mind.
Nobody works in capitalism 🙄
Exactly as valid a statement. I wish I could be as ignorant as you. Life would be so easy. Where do you even get that idea. Did the USSR make nothing? Surely they made something, right? someone worked.
They managed to make the first artificial satellite with a developing economy and much lower starting education, all without anyone working I guess?
Ahhh yes, bankrupting your country while you participate in an arms race. It’s funny how little has changed.
Shifting goalposts. Answer the questions.
