- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
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“When a defendant honestly believes he can’t possibly get a fair trial from the judge, one of the tactics is to antagonize the judge to a point of causing reversible errors,” Dershowitz says. “That is what happened in the Chicago 7 case, and I was one of the lawyers on the appeal in that case. Abbie Hoffman provoked Judge Hoffman to such a degree that the judge made mistake after mistake. And courts of appeal often reverse convictions or verdicts when the judge has made serious errors.”
What a dick. This does not sound like the legal process at work at all. Besides, innocent people would never do this.
The tactics have included attacks on Engoron’s court clerk, filibustering the prosecution’s witnesses with repetitive questions, and raising legal arguments the judge had already specifically prohibited.
Responding to these provocations with contempt charges is correct and proper. Any appeal court judge is going to see that Trump was treated with kid gloves here.
And it kinda doesn’t matter what political party the appeal judge is. They really don’t like people being disrespectful to them and ignoring their orders. It’s like the number one thing all judges hate. This strategy will probably not work.
I don’t know about that last part so much. Current conservatives have shown that there is no level that they won’t sink to and no level of hypocrisy they won’t espouse.
Caveat being it is to further their own lust for power. The second they are on the receiving end serious injustices are taking place.
It’s so dumb that an appeal for a mistrial can get the whole case thrown out rather than simply retried with a different judge
At this point, his strategy is to delay, delay, delay, get elected, and pardon himself.
Most mistrials are retried from the beginning. I imagine it’s mostly the cases that involve misconduct on the judges behalf that get throw out, as that’s a strong argument for a 6th Amendment violation.
As the article mainly states, this isn’t just because Trump can’t help it but also as a strategy to make it easier to get a favorable appeal. Plus, it would stoke his favorite way to portray himself, as a victim, and fundraising:
there have been recent conversations among some of Trump’s 2024 campaign brass of how much of an immediate fundraising boost they would enjoy, if a New York judge were to try to put Trump in a cell for even a minute. “All the cash in the world,” one Trump political adviser says.
I think the solution here would be for the judge to go after Trump’s lawyers. From the article they’re engaging in some of this behavior themselves, in addition to encouraging it in Trump. But, they want the optics of Trump getting imprisoned in order to play victim and try to help an appeal. Seems the judge could side step that and go after the lawyers instead, who have more to lose.
Winner winner chicken dinner!
Lawyers are officers of the court and she can grab them by the short and curlies.
She should remand the entire Trump legal team to the jail for a day, and require Trump to stay at his home for that day as well.
Can the judge jail the lawyers for repeatedly violating his orders? They should know better than to antagonize the court.
Sure. A judge can hold anyone in contempt of court, and they can fine or jail them for any length of time.
But could you hold a lawyer in contempt of court for something their client tweeted? That doesn’t seem likely.
Yes you can. It’s the lawyers job to keep their client in hand not the judges or the courts.
It seems like putting a lawyer in jail would just be a recipe for delaying a trial though. They can’t be expected to provide defense if they’re locked up. Or do they just require you to find new counsel?
I’m sure he has a whole team. If it was a small case, with really only one lawyer, then they would probably not jail them.
I am far from an expert, but I don’t believe so. The court can fine them or maybe recommend them for censure and disbarment.
Yeah… Trump political advisers seem to be correct all the time…
According to two sources familiar with the matter and another person briefed on Team Trump’s legal strategies, the former president and his lawyers are intentionally trying to provoke the judge into a nuclear-level overreaction.
This? Is the plan?
That’s like saying you’re going to kill a dragon by hopping into its mouth.
Overreaction?
How is it an overreaction when any normal person would have been tossed in jail months or even years ago?
Normal people don’t have a few thousand people out there waiting for an excuse to shoot people.
But they should jail Trump anyway. When you have such a dangerous following, it’s even more important that the law come down hard.
They’re already finding excuses.
How so?
Those are supposed to be independent examples of how rich people get richer, but yes, they can do all of them.
The whole “well-organized militia” thing is kinda biting the US in the ass.
According to two sources familiar with the matter and another person briefed on Team Trump’s legal strategies, the former president and his lawyers are intentionally trying to provoke the judge into a nuclear-level overreaction.I think Trump’s legal strategy is he knows he’s lost already. He’s going to be fined and run out of business. So is his only hope is if he and his lawyers are obnoxious dicks and provoke a reaction to force a mistrial or grounds for appeal. Also he can whine about “witch hunt” and the usual nonsense to his base if he’s found in contempt or held accountable for his actions. Expect this nonsense to happen in his criminal trials too.
I think Trump’s legal strategy is he knows he’s lost already.
I’m pretty sure he has lost already and guilt has been legally decided. This is to determine the penalty. FTA:
Engoron ruled in September that Trump’s financial statements contained fraud.
This trial is to determine the depth of the fraud, and importantly, the consequence appropriate depending on the outcome. The whole strategy now is to delay and get to appeal probably with the number one goal being to get elected again and create a legal quagmire, or simply ride out the rest of his years until his milkshake-filled arteries realize he hasn’t ever had a heart and the only thing that’s been pumping this long is pure narcissism.
This is, sadly, probably the least stupid thing he could do, because the more facts you learn about Trump, the more you’d think his fetish is just bending over and getting fucked by a strap-on wielding Lady Justice.
If the judge loses it bad enough, they can claim “judicial bias” and have a pretty clear path to mistrial/appeal. Given the situation, it’s probably the best play they have.
Any normal defendent would be in jail though, probably before the trial even started, but definitely after calling a judge names while in court. I’m simultaneously shocked and not at all surprised he isn’t.
Why would he have been in jail prior to trial?
They don’t do pre-trial detention for fraud, and the only way for this trial to lead to jail time is a (deserved) contempt charge.
If the lawyers get disbarred then Trump gains time but the lawyers’ careers are fucked
To be fair it does work if you have an immovable rod and a DM that honors rule of cool.
“Step 1, I hop into the dragon’s mouth. Step 2, ???. Step 3, the dragon dies and I emerge victorious! There are no holes in this plan at all!”
Dude needs to stand before a firing line, not go to jail.
That’s a lil extreme my guy
Edit: what fuckin world do we live in, where someone says that a politician needs to be shot to death, and the controversial opinion is to not shoot someone? Am I crazy for thinking that killing trump wouldn’t solve anything? We shouldn’t give people a martyr. The best way to get rid of someone is by shaming them and forgetting them.
“Furthermore, 18 U.S.C § 2381, states that a person guilty of treason against the United States “shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”
What a crazy variation in punishment for treason.
10000$ it is
When he says that on a fringe social media platform it’s “lil extreme”
When Trump says that 5 thugs need to be put to death, who were found Innocent, it’s just an opinion everyone is allowed to.
Uh no, that’s also an extreme opinion. Death is always an extreme opinion, because there’s no way to change your mind. Death is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
If you’re gonna be a naïve idealist, at least be an effective one and pick arguments where you’re not splitting hairs over hyperbole on niche social media, much less hyperbole directed at a world-class factory of inflammatory hyperbole who has 0 chance of being executed by the government.
I will not entertain the concept of normalizing extremist hyperbole, as normalizing extremes tends to make them normal.
And what do you do when that comes? If most people consider extreme to be normal, what do the rest of us do?
There is a difference between starting conflict, and defending yourself. Assassination is not a defense
Someone go to this guy’s house and do a medieval torture of some sort.
Nah I think we should do that to you, considering you’re ok with stuff like that
Not sure about this really. You have a great point with the martyr risk, but then again, if Hitler had been executed in 1924, would the whole nazi thing have fallen on its face? Trumpism (much like Hitlerism) is a person cult. Perhaps killing their leader is exactly the kind of thing what people like Trump supporters respect and positively respond to.
The best way to get rid of someone is by shaming them
I think we can be pretty certain that this strategy is not working against Trump. Unless you find a shaming angle that actually works against his supporters. I have no idea what that could be since just about every angle that would work on normal people has been tried out.
I started typing the Hitler comparison before seeing you beat me to it.
Well said.
Honestly, if Hitler had been killed on Aug 29 1939, the Nazis might have done a lot better than they did. I don’t think his generals would have marched into Russia the way he did.
To respond to your edit:
Death as a punishment for treason would do a lot to stem the tide of treasonous fucks that are currently holding high positions in our political system.
The time for leniency is OVER. And making a martyr out of a huge sack of shit is just fine- let more of those fucks step out of line and see what happens.
Do you really think that’s how it’d go down? You might want to rethink that one.
I’ve rethought it- and yea, that’s how it would go down.
Oh, so you’re not just in a bad mood or something, you’re just stupid.
Not so stupid that I’d think that doing next to nothing is the proper way to deal with traitors to our country.
It’s even in built into our laws that death be a possible punishment.
But noooooo, better he remain in jail where he can continue to rile up his army of dipshits and continue destroying this country.
And yes, jailing him still entitles him to martyrdom. At least if the fat fuck were bleeding out in the dirt- he’d shut the fuck up for a change.
If such was legal and in accordance with the Constitution of the United States of America, the military would stand ready to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and obey the orders of those appointed them. Our officers stand ready and willing to defend the United States against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Domestic terrorists are terrorists, and there’s nothing we like better than to hunt terrorists and put warheads on foreheads.
Yeah, good luck getting a court to convict that. There are multiple lawsuits. None of them are considering anything with the death penalty, nor should it. There is no legal precedence for it.
Convicting Trump of the death penalty is more likely to result in a 2nd civil war than it is to make people fall in line. We tried bombing the taliban into falling in line for 20 years. How’d that go?
We’ll March to the Sea again - and back, and forth, and back, and forth, as long as it takes. We did it once, we can do it again.
I think it is more towards the fear of him becoming re-elected and death – while indeed extreme – would prevent such an outcome.
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Hm actually no. I’d prefer to not be a crazy person. Thanks for the offer tho. Enjoy your killing spree. I’ll watch it on the news later
Not really. It’s in line with all US laws to ask for the death penalty
18 U.S.C § 2381, states that a person guilty of treason against the United States “shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”
Considering the scope and impact of his crimes. It would be reasonable to ask for the maximum punishment.
I agree, we should throw him in prison for the rest of his life.
I’m 100% with you
He may be a politician but he’s also a criminal and I think that would be the punishment for his crimes not for being a politician. Although hes a pretty awful politician too lol that’s not a crime.
Boy let me tell you something about our founding fathers… This man tried to destroy our democracy, he deserves to die. However, for the sake of our civilized society I would prefer to see him rot in jail until he dies in the most unglamorous way possible that way he can’t be made a martyr.
Blanket Party, and everyone in the nation gets 15 seconds each.
Yes
It’s as though people want a civil war.
Throw all of them in with the normal prison population and any conservative that tries to “liberate” them.
I guess he is daring NY Judge, because it is a civil case.
He probably should have his release conditioned on gag order in federal cases. And he should be jailed if he breaks it.
If the fear is that his fans will riot, newsflash: they follow identity politics, they don’t care how guilty trump is. Whatever they plan to do, they will do it anyway. So either treat him like you would treat anyone else for similar crimes or just forget about trials and let him do whatever he wants without any consequence. Because there’s no point in wasting time if he can’t be punished.
This reads like a dumpster fire. I hope the judge is way more level headed than I.
The defense is just trumping up reasons for endless appeals.
I see what you did there
Im glad you have not gone blind.
I will straight up double-dog-dare them. I bet they won’t, they don’t have the balls.
What are the Vegas odds?
“This decision is based not only on the odds, but also on an appraisal of the man.”
Same as every other time he has tried to stir shit with these trials. All they have to do is keep a level head and let the hammer drop. They’ve got him, the evidence is there, all they have to do is get the trials to go through with as few hiccups as possible. These judges need to keep a level head and they should be able to do so easily because, despite all the petulant whining and diversionary tactics, they’ve got him.
People said this many times before and he weaseled out of it. I will be optimistic if and I stress IF he ever faces consequences
Fucking do it already.
Someone said that he could still become president even if he went to prison. Is that true? I don’t understand how that would even work.
There’s some weird argument by his cult that it’s not in the constitution that a president can’t be in prison. It’s a lot of mental gymnastics, ignoring the fact that he traitorously stole classified nuclear documents from the US government, along with subverting democracy in the RICO case with the 18 co-conspirators.
You’re conflating two things here. There is absolutely nothing in the cotus that bars someone from becoming POTUS because they are in jail. Imo, there should not be, just like you should not lose your right to vote simply for being a felon.
However, there is something in the cotus that bard someone from being an officer of the state if they’ve been part of an insurrection. This, imo, should bar him, but I’m curious to see how the court cases play out.
Isn’t being a traitor to the US (RICO case + stolen documents + Jan 6th insurrection) against the constitution though?
This Chicago Tribune article goes into more detail.
Treason is defined in the cotus, and none of the three things you posted would rise to the level of treason. The article even talks about it. Neither the Rico charges nor the classified documents, even with a conviction, would bar him from the presidency, but the jab 6th could make him ineligible.
Also, giving the documents to foreign officials would probably be as well, but not just having them.
Don’t get me wrong, it should be disqualifying for any potential voter. . . but unless I’m missing something, this is certainly not treason and I don’t know how it would disqualifying some other way.
Article III, Section 3, Clause 1:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
It would be giving aid to an enemy surely.
bard
Toss a coin to your witcher.
Technically speaking, yes. Trump could be sent to prison tomorrow and still be elected President. There isn’t any “the President can’t be currently incarcerated” requirement. (Likely because the founding fathers thought it was self evident that a criminal shouldn’t be elected President.)
As for how it would work, nobody knows. It’s never happened. Would he get to go to the White House for 4 years and then have to return to prison to serve the rest of his sentence? (Assuming here that he couldn’t just pardon himself.) Would he need to conduct presidential business from the Square Cell instead of the Oval Office? Would a SCIF need to be set up in the prison so that Trump could review classified materials from his cell?
We would be in totally uncharted territory if this happened.
Hitler was imprisoned almost 100 years ago, in April 1924. Perhaps Trump is going by the playbook. Hitler was 34 years old then though, so that part is a little different.
Maybe he’ll skip to the Führerbunker part with Eva Braun?
Never gonna happen. Judges aren’t going to do shit to this guy without a guilty jury verdict.
Even then they’ll probably wimp out.
Wimp out in fear of what? Not being re-elected?
Having their house set on fire, things like that.
Fuck their house, this is the future of our country at stake!
Again…
I can think of no better defense than directly antagonizing law enforcement
Seems to work for anyone with enough money this far.
